Real stories, told by real people.
Back with another story. Welcome to GIANTS AMONGST US, where you'll always hear real stories told by real people. And today, Pepper Anne joins us, and she's got a story to tell. Pepper Anne is a true crime author, and today she talks about how finding out about a cousin of hers, who's currently serving 14 life sentences, opened up a story that ended up being one of the biggest scandals in the South. And she was determined to uncover its truth.
With the support from her family, and a strong team behind her she was able to, after 12 years, finally get her story published -The Notorious Texas Swindler: The Mastermind Behind The Grayson County Five. Her drive, will, and conviction to stand on moral and integrity in order to see her dream through, no matter the cost, gives her a place as one of the GIANTS AMONGST US. And is a living testament as to what the human spirit can do when faced with challenges.
'Til next time,
and very soon,
PEACE!!
_____
Connect with Pepper Anne :
Her Book "The Notorious Texas Swindler" is available in E-book, Paperback, and Hardcover and can be found on her website plus other retailers - AMAZON, KINDLE, BARNES & NOBLE
Website : https://www.pepperanneauthor.com
Goodreads : https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/22695449.Pepper_Anne
Tik Tok : https://www.tiktok.com/@pepperanneauthor
Instagram : @pepperanneauthor
Twitter : https://twitter.com/pepper_author
Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/PepperAnneGetsTheScoop
_____
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00:00:00
Now, here's a little story I got to tell.
00:00:06
You are now tuned in to Giants Among Us.
00:00:11
This is where you're always going to hear real stories that are told by real people.
00:00:17
And today, Pepper Ann joins us and she's got a story to tell.
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Out is one in the face of threats, harassment, and even a concerted effort by groups of people to silence you.
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Continue to stand on moral and integrity without folding or giving in.
00:00:38
We're going to find out.
00:00:40
Pepper Ann is a true crime author and today she talks about how finding out about a cousin of hers
00:00:47
who currently is serving a 14 year life sentence, opened up a story that ended up being one of the biggest scandals in the South.
00:00:56
And she was determined to uncover its truth.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Ladies and gentlemen, this is Pepper Ann and her story.
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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in.
00:01:13
We've got a good one.
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Today I'm joined by Pepper Ann and she's got a story to tell.
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Thank you so much for joining us and being on the podcast.
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Thank you.
00:01:25
I'm so happy to be here and thank you for extending an invitation to me.
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That is my pleasure.
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I came across your story, came across the story that you've been wrapped up in for 12 odd years.
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And I mean, it has a lot of layers like we were talking about offline.
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There's so much depth and there's so much going on with this.
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And the podcast, that's really what it's about.
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Like I was telling you and anybody who's listening knows that what is being discussed is people that have overcome adversity, people that had struggles.
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They've had trauma, they've had setbacks and they use that setback to set them up for their comeback.
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And your story is no different because this story, the notorious Texas swindler is a story that was so near and dear to you that you were willing to face the fire.
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You were willing to deal with harassment.
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If I'm not mistaken, there was people who broke into your house and they were trying to steal anything having to do with this, just to silence you.
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But it meant so much to you that despite all of that, you went ahead, kept on going.
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You had that drive that firing you and the story is now public.
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Yes, that's true.
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No one had broken into our home, but they did loosen the lights on our cars.
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That's okay.
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Listen, it felt like they did invade my home at times though.
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Can you give us a little, well, before we get into the background of this story, you mind just telling everybody a little bit about yourself?
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Oh, absolutely.
00:03:17
So my name is Pepper Ann and I am a true crime author.
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I wrote a story based here in Texas about a family member who back in 2001 was well known throughout the media at Make National News.
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He, when he and four other offenders broke out of the Grayson County Jail located in Sherman, Texas.
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And so I heard the story and I went online and I read a little bit about it.
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And after speaking with family members and other individuals, I decided that I wanted to do more research and possibly take this on.
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So for the past 12 years, I have been working on this story and I've uncovered a very large crime ring full of individuals who are still today breaking the law and causing chaos for all kinds of individuals.
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I've taken it upon myself to try to expose these people.
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I have worked with private investigators in the past and learned where to start on how to get information for the story.
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And so that, that helped me along the way with having that knowledge of working with those individuals.
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So I'm a true crime Texas author based in Texas.
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Yeah.
00:04:51
Howdy.
00:04:52
Howdy.
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Oh, can you, can you give like a, I mean, the story is so deep.
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Like I was saying, there's so much going on with it.
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There's a lot to unravel.
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But for the listeners, can you kind of give like a bird's eye view of exactly what this story is about?
00:05:12
Absolutely.
00:05:13
So the story is about a individual.
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He's a sixth generation Texan.
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He's a cousin.
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He started the criminal lifestyle when he was younger.
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He got into it.
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He was, he actually started when he was a teenager.
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He had got mixed up with individuals he shouldn't have.
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And then by the time he was probably 24, he was wrestling cattle with the DPS state trooper.
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And he was making more money than he'd ever seen before in his young life.
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And then he advanced to working with other hardened criminals throughout his life.
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And those individuals that he got tangled up with were the bunch that I exposed.
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They prey on the public to this day.
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And so he got caught up with them and he ended up going to prison.
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And while he was in prison, he met and married his then wife at the time, a woman who when Bob made parole,
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she convinced him to get back into the criminal lifestyle because he had considered he had, he'd wanted to get out of it.
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But I think once you fall into that, I don't know that it's easy to change that mentality.
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And so I think he had tried, he wanted to, but he fell in with this other bunch of people,
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met this woman, they got married.
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And when he made parole, the two of them wrestled cattle and made even more money than what Bob and the DPS trooper did together.
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And while they were wrestling cattle, because Bob was always raised around it, you know, ranches,
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he knew the lifestyle of cattle and farming and everything.
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So he knew what he was doing while he was overseeing that his wife was handling the financial parts of everything.
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And she was overseeing that and then she was also running a party ranch that the two of them had together.
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And she was inviting guests to the party ranch to enjoy ranch style amenities, you know, come on out for the weekend, have a good time.
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And so she was videotaping them and on compromising positions.
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And then later she blackmailed them.
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And it just, it's just a, he just got involved in so much stuff and he was just as much a part of it as everyone else was.
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I don't want anyone to think that he's innocent because he is by no means innocent.
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He just kept getting caught up with these people, putting himself in places where they were.
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And it just, it turned into just one of the biggest scandals in taxes.
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Eventually Bob's wife, Tammy had set up extra marital affairs for him to have so that they could swindle the women out of all their money.
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So between the party ranch, the cattle wrestling and the extra marital affairs, they were making money hand over fist.
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And it all of a racket going on.
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You're not kidding.
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Yeah, so, and then it all ended because once Bob was finally captured and put into the Grayson County jail here in Texas,
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he and four other individuals escaped the jail and then they were, they were finally captured, but not before Bob and one of the fugitives was involved in a shootout,
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an eight hour shootout against law enforcement while holding a married couple hostage.
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So there are so many ups and downs in this story.
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That's a story.
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That is, that's like the Wild West.
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I mean, if the wrestling cattle alone, I didn't even know that is that still something that, that, that goes on to this day?
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It is.
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A lot of people don't realize, but it is.
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They have advanced these, these, these cattle thieves.
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They've advanced now they roll into a property where there's cattle at with big, big semi trucks.
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They go in, they cut the wire on the fence.
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They get in, they get the cattle and they're out within just a matter of minutes and they take off and cattle.
00:09:51
Well, there's a lot of money involved in that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, there sure is.
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And then, and then hearing about now, if that wasn't enough going on and then the fact that he was able to break out of jail, he wiggled himself out of jail.
00:10:09
Well, Bob actually escaped jail twice.
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Oh, yes.
00:10:15
What?
00:10:16
Yeah.
00:10:16
I know that I know the guards have a lot going on, but I mean, what, what were they or were they not doing?
00:10:24
Well, so the first time he escaped jail, now jail in prison are two separate.
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Yeah, he was in the jail.
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It was in a clinker.
00:10:33
That's right.
00:10:34
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:35
I've never heard that term.
00:10:36
I'm going to start using that.
00:10:39
Yes.
00:10:40
He was in the clinker and when he escaped that jail, it was in the 80s.
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It was an 89, I believe.
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He, one of the individuals that he got tied up with had actually broke him out.
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He brought in, he brought in a razor and the end Bob saw in his self out and it really did happen.
00:11:07
The individual that helped him escape was charged with facilitating the escape, but his charges were dropped.
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And I happened to find a few key pieces of information that were supposed to have been deleted, but they were not.
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And so I have this and this individual was supposed to serve time for, for facilitating the escape, but he did not.
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So Bob escaped in 89 and then he escaped again in from Grayson County in 2001.
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And what happened was he actually, he met four other offenders in the jail and he convinced them to break him out.
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And so they dug a tunnel through the underground air deck system of the jail and it took them a little while to do it.
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But once they did, they crawled underneath and after the final count of the evening in the jail after it was done,
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they had other offenders, stuff and pillows and their mattresses making it look like they were there and then they were off.
00:12:13
My goodness, that is off the rails.
00:12:18
Now, with this story, everything that you had to go through to pursue this, to write it, to make sure that you weren't silenced or hushed and to follow through with this.
00:12:33
I guess I want to, I'm just curious as to what was the drive or the reason that got you going and felt that that driving you to say, you know,
00:12:46
there's some things that I want to talk about and this is something I want to be involved with.
00:12:52
Well, when I was first researching the story, I read, I read different versions of what happened as far as the cattle wrestling and all the individuals involved.
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I didn't read anything about what had happened prior to the Grayson County five because those records that nobody knew what I was exposing beforehand.
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I didn't even know what I was getting into.
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But when I was reading articles written by individuals in the media and they had written versions by the victims and what had happened.
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And I got to know some of the victims, became very close to several of them.
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And then, of course, I knew Bob's story because I had researched through court records and I had all this information.
00:13:42
I decided if anyone is going to talk about my family member, I want to make sure they know the whole story and that they know everyone that's involved.
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And so what pushed me to do this was to tell the story the right way to make sure that we had the truth out there.
00:14:03
It was talking to the victims and getting getting their story out there.
00:14:09
I would go visit Bob at the prison many times and we would have visit would be fine.
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And then all of a sudden the mood would change and he would say, I'm not the only one that should be sitting in here.
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And he was right.
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And that's what pushed me to keep going.
00:14:31
Was there immediately a lot of backlash or did that come about once this story started to pick up and maybe there was a lot more light being shown on it?
00:14:43
Oh, yes.
00:14:45
Because you had a lot of you had a lot of people trying to detour your train, but you kept on with the keeping on.
00:14:53
Thank you. Yes.
00:14:54
Well, I would say once I started working on the project, it was within a month.
00:15:00
We noticed the lug nuts on our tires were loosened and I had received warnings from individuals.
00:15:08
In fact, the tires, did the tires come off?
00:15:11
Almost.
00:15:12
Almost.
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The lug nuts were loosened to a point and you can those are not easy to take off.
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I mean, you have to really try to take to loosen the lug nuts on a on a tire.
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That's not something.
00:15:27
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:29
Exactly.
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So someone really wanted to get their point across and it was reported.
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All of this stuff had been reported.
00:15:38
The tires didn't come off completely, but they almost did and it wasn't just one time.
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It happened several times to several individuals.
00:15:47
Wow.
00:15:48
And then as I said, the threats, the people just anonymously saying, this is going to stop.
00:15:57
You're going to stop.
00:15:58
One individual, in fact, the one who had been charged with facilitating the escape for Bob,
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that from it was from Kelleyhan County, who was in Texas.
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He had made a statement that if the story ever came out and it was not said to me, it
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was said to another family member, because the story is we've had people that wanted
00:16:21
to tell the story for a while and I got a hold of it.
00:16:24
And once I did, I wouldn't stop.
00:16:25
But this individual had made a statement to another family member and to Bob that if the
00:16:31
story ever got out that he wouldn't have a problem making a car wreck look like an accident.
00:16:37
Now is this more so with, well, I know for one, it's people trying to protect themselves,
00:16:45
but there's a lot of high profile names involved in this?
00:16:49
Yes, there is.
00:16:51
There sure is.
00:16:52
People trying to protect themselves and then as you had stated, there are high profile
00:16:57
names involved.
00:16:59
And once they're exposed, it can destroy them.
00:17:03
Did you ever notice people coming by the house or like kind of driving a little too close
00:17:11
to you or tailing you when you're on the road?
00:17:15
Anything like that?
00:17:16
No, and I don't know that they were that bold or stupid to do that.
00:17:21
I think what they were doing was when, I think when they were loosing the lug nuts and things
00:17:27
such as that, I think it was happening when we were either, we might not have been home,
00:17:32
we might have been gone in another vehicle or might have been sleeping.
00:17:35
It was a time when no one was aware of it.
00:17:40
And even trying to just silence you, silence the story in general, like there was a lot
00:17:47
of people that were making sure or were trying to make sure at least that the story was never
00:17:53
published.
00:17:54
That's true.
00:17:56
And there was an individual who I named in my book.
00:18:01
He had first met with me in the beginning.
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And I know that he recorded me.
00:18:10
You know how you just have a feeling?
00:18:12
I think with me working with other private investigators, you just kind of know, just
00:18:17
kind of have a sense of something.
00:18:19
And I had a...
00:18:20
So you were working side by side with private investigators?
00:18:23
No, I had worked with private investigators before I ever took this project on.
00:18:27
It was just something I was interested in doing.
00:18:30
And then I wasn't doing it anymore.
00:18:33
I wasn't licensed, but I worked at my own discretion with other private investigators.
00:18:37
You were a hand-in-hand.
00:18:38
Yes.
00:18:39
Hand-in-hand experience.
00:18:40
Exactly, exactly.
00:18:42
So I used some of that experience to help me with writing this book and to know what
00:18:47
to look for.
00:18:49
And there was an individual who had reached out to me and said that they wanted to meet
00:18:54
and speak to me about the story.
00:18:56
And they wanted to know what I was putting in it.
00:18:58
Well, I wasn't going to tell them because I didn't know.
00:19:02
I was still researching it.
00:19:04
Yes.
00:19:05
And I had a feeling.
00:19:07
He kept going to the bathroom.
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Every 10, 15 minutes, he had to go to the bathroom.
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And I heard a click in.
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I heard something and it was in his shirt.
00:19:15
And I wanted to reach out and rip his shirt off him.
00:19:19
I had a feeling he was recording me, but I didn't know.
00:19:23
You know, I...
00:19:24
Like a microflip.
00:19:25
Possibly.
00:19:26
Possibly.
00:19:27
Yeah.
00:19:28
I mean, doing what you're doing, I would be paranoid too.
00:19:32
Well, yeah.
00:19:33
Or just a little cautious.
00:19:34
Yes, yes, exactly.
00:19:35
Well, like I said, I didn't see it, so I can't say that it was for sure, but it just...
00:19:39
Just a feeling.
00:19:41
Something didn't seem right.
00:19:42
But he wanted to write the story with me.
00:19:45
And he wanted to write it.
00:19:47
He wanted to oversee what I was going to put in the book.
00:19:50
And that's why he reached out to me.
00:19:52
And once I said, no, I'm not doing that with you.
00:19:55
I don't even know you.
00:19:56
This is a book that my family and I, we want to get the story out there.
00:20:00
And after that happened, things seemed to get worse, meaning the threats, things just
00:20:08
seemed to go downhill from there.
00:20:10
Were there calls?
00:20:11
Was it were they calling the house like anonymously?
00:20:14
I'd received one or two calls and I couldn't get the number.
00:20:22
It was unknown.
00:20:25
Most of the things that they did, like I said, were verbally to other individuals and to me.
00:20:32
And then the loosening of the lug nuts, there were a few emails sent to Bob.
00:20:40
That's extreme.
00:20:41
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:42
Yeah.
00:20:43
And I referenced those emails in my book.
00:20:49
I just used it as proof.
00:20:51
That's like the holy Bible of this whole scenario.
00:20:55
It is.
00:20:56
It's part of it.
00:20:57
A lot of information.
00:20:58
I mean, there was a, like I was telling you before we started recording, it just looked
00:21:05
like it was so in-depth that I can't wait to sink my teeth in it.
00:21:12
I hope that you enjoy it.
00:21:13
I've had a lot of people reach out to me and tell me that they've had to reread several
00:21:18
sections to make sure what they read was really what they read.
00:21:24
You don't hear things such as this.
00:21:26
It's only in the movies.
00:21:27
People don't realize that this is true.
00:21:31
What happened?
00:21:33
Did you have any family members that, I know you had people from the outside, strangers,
00:21:40
probably people that were tied up to this in their own way that were trying to silence
00:21:44
you, but did you have any of your own family members that were seeing or going through
00:21:51
these harassments with you that were also trying to persuade you to not continue with
00:21:58
the project?
00:22:00
There were some family members before I had come into the picture.
00:22:05
There were some family members who were threatened.
00:22:08
So let me give you a little backstory here.
00:22:12
I didn't know that I was related to Bob.
00:22:15
I never heard of him.
00:22:16
And he didn't know about me either.
00:22:18
The first time we learned about each other was after the passing of my grandpa Riley.
00:22:24
My grandpa passed away in early 2006, I believe.
00:22:29
And that's when I heard that we had a cattle wrestler in the family.
00:22:34
So learned a little bit about it.
00:22:35
I read about it online and then I wrote a letter to Bob and I said, you and I are related.
00:22:41
See our grandpas were brothers.
00:22:45
And that made my mom and Bob's dad first cousins.
00:22:50
And then Bob and I are all, you know, the work cousins as well.
00:22:55
And so I reached out to him and I said, hey, I want, I want to talk to you, put me on your
00:23:00
list.
00:23:02
I want to, I want to write this story.
00:23:04
And that's how it all began.
00:23:08
He didn't have any other family members.
00:23:11
Well, I mean, he did.
00:23:12
He has, he has other family members, but he didn't know about my side of the family.
00:23:18
And I really know much about his either.
00:23:22
Like I said, until my, until my grandfather passed away.
00:23:24
And that's when I met all these other people.
00:23:28
See Bob was raised differently than the rest of us.
00:23:35
And I learned after doing the research that why we didn't know each other beforehand,
00:23:43
because he was into so much criminal mischief.
00:23:47
He was into this lifestyle so deep.
00:23:49
And my, you know, our family on this side didn't exactly want to be involved in that,
00:23:56
you know,
00:23:57
Well, he was playing on the other side of the railroad, the tracks.
00:24:01
He was on the other side and yeah, you had, you had no part of that.
00:24:06
Exactly.
00:24:07
Most of us on this side of the family didn't, you know, we do have some outlaws in the family,
00:24:13
but and he is one of them.
00:24:16
But we just didn't, we just didn't know about him, you know, to, it was different worlds.
00:24:25
There were family or you had some family that were kind, kind of trying to get on, on you
00:24:31
and I guess bring, bring it to your attention.
00:24:34
Maybe you should tone it down or take the, the foot off the pedal a little bit here.
00:24:39
You're going, you're going too, too hard with this one.
00:24:43
No, actually my, my family on both sides was very supportive of me doing this.
00:24:52
They were very supportive.
00:24:53
Never mind the, the threats or, you know, just, I'm just looking at it from a sense of some
00:25:00
people would try to, I guess feel like they're protecting a family member saying, you know,
00:25:08
this might be a little too dangerous.
00:25:10
They were, they were supportive either way.
00:25:12
The truth is the truth and it needs to be told.
00:25:15
That's true.
00:25:16
Yes.
00:25:17
And the family members that were a little leery of it, they, they were always very supportive
00:25:22
of me.
00:25:23
You know, my, my dad, for instance, he kept saying, you know, maybe you need to stop.
00:25:30
You need to stop doing this.
00:25:31
But then there were other family members who said, no, keep going.
00:25:35
The story needs to come out.
00:25:37
And I was so determined to tell it that I don't think anyone could have stopped me.
00:25:42
I know no one could have stopped me because I just, I felt that it needs to come out.
00:25:46
Now before I entered the picture, before I ever started writing this story, I ever knew
00:25:51
about it.
00:25:52
There was another family member who attempted to write it, but they were quieted, meaning
00:25:59
they, they were afraid from the threats that they had received.
00:26:03
So they backed off.
00:26:06
And then other individuals who were not family members, just random individuals came into
00:26:10
the picture and they tried to also write the story, but no one succeeded.
00:26:16
And I don't know if they received threats.
00:26:19
I just, I honestly don't know, or if they just lost interest.
00:26:23
Yes.
00:26:24
But either way, that wasn't going to stop you.
00:26:28
And that was one thing that I was telling you beforehand and once again, that the drive,
00:26:36
the determination, that, that passion and, and desire, the fire in you to see to it,
00:26:45
no matter what, I think can be inspiring and encouraging to anybody that's listening with
00:26:53
the project that they may have, a goal that they want to reach, anything that they've
00:27:00
thought about, or they've, they've tried to put before them and accomplish the fact that
00:27:08
you can hear of people that they had, they had such a drive and they weren't willing
00:27:13
to take no for an answer or to be sidetracked.
00:27:16
That, that's inspiring.
00:27:17
And I could speak for myself, like I told you before that, that those are the type of
00:27:22
stories and the type of will, willpower that I love to hear because it, it kind of puts
00:27:28
wind to my back.
00:27:31
It encourages you to want to keep going in anything you do.
00:27:36
You watch what someone else does and it gives you the courage maybe to pursue something
00:27:45
in your own life.
00:27:46
Yeah.
00:27:47
And for you, it was, you were, you were talking about like one of your main driving forces
00:27:54
was your family.
00:27:55
It was, it was my family, it was the victims.
00:27:59
I would get so mad when I would go online and I would read these articles written by
00:28:06
individuals and they were only telling the story about Grayson County.
00:28:10
And I understand, you know, the, the jail escape and I understand that was the story
00:28:14
of the moment.
00:28:16
But no one knew the backstory.
00:28:19
And I guess when you're work for a newspaper or a magazine and you're trying to get a story
00:28:23
together, you don't dig that far back.
00:28:27
You don't have time.
00:28:28
I don't, I don't know.
00:28:30
And I thought, okay, if I'm, if someone's going to write about this, I want the whole
00:28:34
story out there.
00:28:36
And so I, I just kept going.
00:28:39
I thought my family deserves to know the truth.
00:28:42
I had family members who were online researching our family history.
00:28:48
And I thought, well, while they're doing that, I'm going to do this.
00:28:53
This is a family member that nobody is really talked about.
00:28:58
And I just kept going.
00:29:00
What was that process like?
00:29:02
Cause you said it took, it was 12 years in the making.
00:29:06
And you even talked about, there was a, there was a couple of times where all of the information
00:29:13
was, was it stolen or it was taken from you?
00:29:17
And you had to release, you had to start over again.
00:29:20
It was deleted.
00:29:21
Yes.
00:29:22
So when I first started, yeah.
00:29:24
That is hard.
00:29:26
I just could imagine your, how you felt when you found out that had happened.
00:29:34
I was devastated.
00:29:35
That happened to me three times.
00:29:38
It happened to me several times.
00:29:40
How deep were you, were you in it the first time that it happened?
00:29:43
How deep into the story or in the project?
00:29:45
I'd had it written probably three quarters of the way through.
00:29:50
Oh my God.
00:29:52
My editor, my mom, everybody in the family, they said, oh my God, you got to be kidding.
00:30:00
Everybody was searching their computers to see if they could find it and they couldn't
00:30:04
find it.
00:30:05
I thought maybe I'd send them copies and oh my gosh.
00:30:09
So I had to rewrite it.
00:30:11
The process of writing this book was, it was a long one for sure.
00:30:17
I interviewed individuals in law enforcement, interviewed friends and family, victims.
00:30:22
I even interviewed individuals who were involved in some of the crimes.
00:30:26
They came forward and talked to me.
00:30:29
Oh you were dealing with people that were, that were first hand involved in it?
00:30:34
Yes.
00:30:35
Oh yeah.
00:30:36
I received a letter from an individual who told me events and times and places and I
00:30:44
included in the book.
00:30:45
It's in the index.
00:30:49
So I had all this information.
00:30:51
So no wonder there's a lot of people that were looking to silence, silence the bird.
00:30:58
Some of their own were talking.
00:31:00
Yeah.
00:31:01
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:02
Some of their own were talking and they didn't want that.
00:31:05
I had to rewrite it multiple times and each time I had to rewrite it, it was harder than
00:31:10
the one before.
00:31:12
And the final time that I had to do it, I was so discouraged.
00:31:19
I mean you can only imagine having to rewrite this whole thing all over again.
00:31:26
And I share this story with everyone because I think it's important to know that we all
00:31:31
get frustrated at things in our lives and we wonder is this really what I'm supposed
00:31:36
to do but I knew for a fact this final and last time this was mine and I was going to
00:31:41
stop shoving it away.
00:31:42
I was going to learn how, I was going to figure out how to protect it even more because the
00:31:47
last time that my work was deleted and the way they did is they hacked into my computer
00:31:54
and they got into it and they deleted my work.
00:31:58
But the last and final time I said that's it, I can't do this anymore and I had to talk
00:32:04
with God and I said just don't, I can't.
00:32:09
This is too much.
00:32:11
Close my laptop.
00:32:12
I was working part-time in a hospital gift shop and it was just to kind of get me away
00:32:17
from the book because the book is what I was doing full-time.
00:32:20
I went to work and went in and within probably 45 minutes to an hour time period there were
00:32:28
three different individuals, three different times who came into the hospital gift shop.
00:32:33
They were all craving a soda.
00:32:36
One lady was a nurse in ICU and she had stopped drinking coax and she was just sitting at
00:32:42
her desk and the thought came to her she needed to pray for someone and she was just craving
00:32:49
a coke.
00:32:50
So she came downstairs and we had talked and she said something told me to come to the
00:32:56
gift shop instead of the cafeteria.
00:32:59
We talked and she said I'm supposed to pray for you.
00:33:02
So she did.
00:33:04
There were two other individuals that the same scenario played out and they prayed for
00:33:09
me and I knew at that moment that God had sent those people to tell me yes you've had
00:33:18
to redo this several times but this is yours.
00:33:20
You're the only one that's hung in there and you have to go.
00:33:24
And that was the last and final time for me.
00:33:28
Sometimes we get these signs or these warnings and we need to listen to that.
00:33:36
We might lose faith in ourselves.
00:33:37
We may think okay I can't do this but we can.
00:33:41
We just have to keep going and I did.
00:33:45
Keep writing it as many times as you did but still seem to it the persistency.
00:33:54
I was just thinking of one time when I was trying to put a website together and then
00:34:01
I was writing just the about me and it was a long piece.
00:34:06
I mean maybe a few paragraphs if that's long but then for some reason everything shut off
00:34:13
and I had to rewrite it.
00:34:14
I was just off of three paragraphs.
00:34:17
I was telling myself you know what I'm not going to rewrite this.
00:34:22
I can't even imagine to be that far along in a book but then looking back or just taking
00:34:30
a second to think of how much this already had meant to you and how emerged in it you
00:34:37
were.
00:34:38
This was it was like there's there's no other way sometimes it's like it's it's going to
00:34:43
get done.
00:34:44
This is the last thing that I do.
00:34:47
There were times when I thought it was going to be the last thing I would do because I
00:34:50
had to redo it so many times that it just did not make sense.
00:34:56
Yes 12 years and I told Bob I said you know we've had some interesting conversations.
00:35:07
So you still keep in touch with them to this day?
00:35:10
I haven't recently I had removed my name from his visiting list and the reason that I did
00:35:17
is because he has an individual on his list who is tied up with these individuals and
00:35:28
I do not.
00:35:29
Had it evolved in this story?
00:35:31
Yes.
00:35:32
Yes.
00:35:33
Okay.
00:35:34
And I do not want to be I don't want my family.
00:35:36
I don't want anyone connected in any way to these individuals and I express this to him
00:35:44
multiple times.
00:35:45
So after not getting anywhere with him telling him you need to take this individual off your
00:35:51
list I removed my name from his list and the funny part about it is I'm the only individual
00:35:59
he never took off his list.
00:36:02
For years and years I'm the only person that he never removed from his visiting list and
00:36:09
I had to do it.
00:36:10
I also got him trans.
00:36:13
Is he doing life in person?
00:36:14
He has 14 life sentences.
00:36:17
14 life sentences.
00:36:20
And the charges that he has stemmed from when he escaped from the Grayson County Jail.
00:36:27
They were trying to make sure he'd never get out.
00:36:30
And so all of those charges were to keep him in there.
00:36:34
So he'd never get out.
00:36:35
I feel like sometimes they do that because when somebody breaks out of prison, jail, whatever
00:36:42
it is, it makes the jail look bad and they want to make an example out of this person.
00:36:46
I mean he also had a long laundry list of things he was involved with.
00:36:50
But speaking of that, is he the only one involved in what he was involved with that is still
00:36:59
in jail, in prison?
00:37:01
Yes.
00:37:02
He is the only one that is in prison.
00:37:05
Aside from the individuals in the Grayson County Jail escape, he is the only one that
00:37:12
has served time and has gotten in trouble for it.
00:37:15
Yes.
00:37:16
His wife, his wife that he was running that racket with, she's out and about?
00:37:24
She is out and about.
00:37:25
Now I have to be careful how I say this because I don't want my attorney to come back and say,
00:37:31
wait a minute, no, no, no, no, let me say, she did have charges and she served days in
00:37:41
prison and she should have served years.
00:37:43
There was a big investigation going on and she and several others just got out of it.
00:37:52
And the book goes into that a little bit.
00:37:55
You cover all of the other key players involved and I guess as much as you have on them.
00:38:04
And I don't know what the statute of limitations are in Texas.
00:38:08
Like can some of these people, if things were enough evidence, were stacked against them
00:38:13
and they were able to prosecute them, can they still be charged for some of these crimes?
00:38:18
They possibly could.
00:38:19
Now here's something interesting.
00:38:22
So Bob's wife oversaw all of the financial aspects of everything they were doing.
00:38:31
So I believe someone like her, I don't want to say once a criminal, always a criminal
00:38:38
because I do believe people can change.
00:38:41
I do believe they can change.
00:38:43
But this individual and the ones Bob got tangled up with will not, they refuse to.
00:38:49
So now she is working for an adoption agency and she oversees their finances and I include
00:38:55
that in the book.
00:38:56
So an adoption agency worldwide adoption agency.
00:39:02
Yeah.
00:39:03
Yeah.
00:39:04
So they're committing crimes today that if they can't face charges for what they managed
00:39:14
to weasel out of before, don't worry, there's other crimes are committing today that they
00:39:19
could get in trouble for.
00:39:22
And because it's family, I'm always looking and I'm always thinking, what can we catch
00:39:29
them on because they are still doing things.
00:39:33
And I'm finding more and more.
00:39:37
The private investigator in you does not sleep, does it?
00:39:42
No, it does not.
00:39:43
No, it doesn't.
00:39:44
And it's amazing because Bob, when I would go see him in the prison, every time I'd go
00:39:51
see him, he'd say, it's been this long.
00:39:54
It's been this, like he's a verbal calendar.
00:39:59
He's keeping track.
00:40:00
Yes.
00:40:01
Yes.
00:40:02
And our conversations were very interesting.
00:40:08
And he was always keeping track of that.
00:40:12
And I guess if you're serving that much time in prison and you don't have anything else
00:40:16
to do, you probably do that.
00:40:18
You want to know what others are up to.
00:40:20
He wants them, you know, they all committed crimes together the same time.
00:40:26
They all went in on it together and they should all, all of them should serve the same punishment
00:40:33
or something equivalent to it.
00:40:35
It should be stopped.
00:40:36
He was, he should have been.
00:40:39
Now let's get these other people.
00:40:40
Yeah.
00:40:41
Yes.
00:40:42
And this is after, after you released this book, you, do you plan maybe in the future
00:40:49
to do a, I know this, that was 12 years of your life already, but do you plan to do a
00:40:54
follow up with it or are you writing anything else or interested in any other stories?
00:41:00
Because I know this was your first book that you, you worked on and published.
00:41:04
Well, that's, that was my thought, but I've had a lot of people reach out and ask me when
00:41:10
my next book is coming out.
00:41:13
My next one, I am working on another one that kind of fell into my lap and I'm taking my
00:41:22
time about it because I want to.
00:41:27
True story.
00:41:28
Yes.
00:41:29
And true crime.
00:41:30
True crime.
00:41:31
True crime.
00:41:32
Uh huh.
00:41:33
Yeah.
00:41:34
I want to approach it a little differently than I did the other one, this one, the first
00:41:38
book.
00:41:39
I may circle back around and write another one to the story about Bob, but it would have
00:41:49
to be after a serious real investigation has been done on these individuals.
00:41:57
I don't want to rewrite what I've already written.
00:41:59
I want to write something with some of the, that shows that there's progress been made.
00:42:08
You know, if there's nothing new to tell, I'm not going to write anything, but I'm hoping
00:42:12
that there will be by getting this story out there and having others look into this,
00:42:18
maybe it will open more and get more interest on it.
00:42:23
Is that your, like, if you had one outcome of writing this book, what would be your ideal
00:42:32
outcome of now releasing it and having it out in the public.
00:42:36
And finally, I'm getting eyes on it and attention drawn to it.
00:42:40
If you had an ideal outcome of, yes, that's, that's what I wanted.
00:42:46
Well, the ideal outcome would be that individuals would see these people for who and what they
00:42:53
are.
00:42:54
There are individuals who admire some of these people.
00:43:00
These people are implanted in churches and children's organizations.
00:43:05
And the ideal, they're in high places.
00:43:09
Yes.
00:43:10
So the ideal outcome is to get the story out there where people know the truth and they
00:43:19
understand what's going on and whatever comes from there, I don't know.
00:43:27
That's another thing that I wasn't, I wasn't aware of or it kind of slipped my mind that
00:43:33
some of these, some of these key players involved in this, like you said, they're still working
00:43:40
around children.
00:43:41
They're still whatever it is involved in these organizations or these clubs.
00:43:47
And it angers me.
00:43:50
It angers me to see this.
00:43:52
It angers me to see that these individuals are still in play.
00:43:58
And the reason they are is because of the way they're viewed.
00:44:04
And I stumbled onto this and I said, okay, this has got to stop.
00:44:09
Obviously this is a story I was supposed to tell or I wouldn't have done it.
00:44:17
It just kept coming back to me.
00:44:18
The story kept coming back to me.
00:44:19
I tried to walk away from it 90 times and I couldn't.
00:44:22
And finally the last time I realized this is mine.
00:44:26
I'm going to protect it as best I can and I'm going to run with it because it's time
00:44:32
for these people to be brought out.
00:44:36
Do you think it was more so that there wasn't a thorough investigation in it or that these
00:44:44
people they, I don't know if it had to do with the judicial system that they, they kind
00:44:50
of like a slap in the wrist and they let them go.
00:44:52
Well I think what happened was the individuals paid their way out of their charges and it
00:44:58
did because I proved that in the book.
00:45:00
Bribery.
00:45:01
Yes.
00:45:02
Yes.
00:45:03
And you know, people either admired these individuals or they were afraid of them.
00:45:09
I think they more admired them.
00:45:11
Well money, yeah.
00:45:13
Money can influence a lot and it can, it can get you out of a lot of sticky situations.
00:45:21
If you have the right money or you know the right people.
00:45:23
Well, you know what's.
00:45:25
Never mind your guilt, you have a crime.
00:45:27
Exactly.
00:45:28
You know what's interesting when I first started researching this story and this is what, it
00:45:33
made me so mad when I saw it because I saw a pattern.
00:45:38
The first time I saw that one individual had paid their way out, one individual was supposed
00:45:46
to go to prison and they paid their way out and I realized as I began researching and
00:45:54
I started following the story that so did the rest of them.
00:46:00
It wasn't the same individual.
00:46:02
There were several individuals in this group of people and they all followed in suit with
00:46:08
what the first one did and the second and the third and so on.
00:46:12
And I realized this has to stop.
00:46:16
It's time to put a stop to it.
00:46:18
And that's what I hope the outcome of this will be.
00:46:24
I don't know if it will.
00:46:26
You know, you never know because like you said, money, money does a lot.
00:46:30
Money if you got money, you can pay your way out and I know that.
00:46:33
I mean, we all know that.
00:46:35
That's proof in my book.
00:46:37
Yeah.
00:46:38
When does it stop?
00:46:39
I mean, does it ever stop?
00:46:40
I don't know.
00:46:41
Yeah.
00:46:42
But the one thing I can say that you should be able to rest your head on is the fact that
00:46:52
regardless of the outcome, like I'm in an ideal world, there would be justice served.
00:46:57
But regardless of that, that you did your part and you stuck to your guns and you spoke
00:47:04
your truth, regardless of all of the setbacks having to rewrite it, the death threats, because
00:47:14
if they're taking lugs off of your tires, I mean, they're pretty much trying to send
00:47:18
you off into the dividing lane or they're trying to end that road.
00:47:24
So with all of that, you still did your part.
00:47:31
And that right there is powerful because how many people, and I'm just talking in general,
00:47:37
like when you see something wrong or you see an unjust and people turn the other cheek
00:47:44
or they turn the cold shoulder or they act like they know, I mean, how many people really
00:47:50
speak up and stand up for something that they believe in.
00:47:54
And you did exactly that with writing this book and seeing to it.
00:48:00
Nevermind the outcome and nevermind the hell fire you had to go through to get it out and
00:48:07
be seen today.
00:48:09
So I mean, just on the outside looking in, I think that with that, that's something to
00:48:16
be proud of.
00:48:18
I'm very proud of it.
00:48:19
I'm very, very proud of it.
00:48:21
I've had people reach out to me and say, you know, because you did that, I wasn't sure
00:48:27
if I could just something to them that was huge was to get their books out or to keep
00:48:34
going and they weren't writing true crime.
00:48:36
It was just, it's difficult.
00:48:37
It's hard sometimes when you have a goal in life and you're not sure you might not have
00:48:45
the confidence in yourself at the time and it's hard sometimes.
00:48:50
But these individuals would reach out to me and they'd say, I'm going to keep going.
00:48:55
And we should, we have to believe in ourselves because we all are capable of doing great
00:49:03
and wonderful things.
00:49:04
You know, we all have a purpose and we have to keep going.
00:49:09
It may be something as simple as talking to someone and being a friend to a lonely individual,
00:49:18
something that may seem small to someone else, but it's not.
00:49:24
We all play a big part in this universe and we all have a role and everything we do has
00:49:31
meaning and what may seem small to someone else is very huge to another person.
00:49:38
You know, amen.
00:49:40
And we have to keep, we have to keep going.
00:49:43
That's beautifully put.
00:49:44
Yeah.
00:49:45
Like you said, something small to you, a small gesture that you're doing out of the kindness
00:49:51
of your heart to somebody else, that could mean the world to somebody else.
00:49:56
That's true.
00:49:57
Yeah.
00:49:58
And you also put that spark in people that might have been doubting themselves, whether
00:50:04
it's a project, a goal, something that they had in mind, but you know, sometimes we can
00:50:12
talk ourselves out of things, but hearing this story and the drive that you had and
00:50:17
the perseverance and the determination that can, I think, lift somebody back up and put
00:50:23
them back on the horse and make them feel like, you know, I'm going to ride this thing
00:50:26
out.
00:50:27
I'm going to go ahead and do what I said I couldn't do or what I thought I couldn't do.
00:50:33
Yeah.
00:50:34
I mean, we all are capable of doing great things and we have to see that in ourselves.
00:50:42
Of course, we need people to help lift us up and we're supposed to lift one another up.
00:50:49
I wrote this book.
00:50:50
I will say this.
00:50:51
I say it every time.
00:50:52
I wrote this book, but I didn't do it by myself.
00:50:57
I wrote it, but I had people who stepped in and helped me.
00:51:01
I didn't know anything about social media.
00:51:04
I had people helping me, you know, set everything up.
00:51:10
There are people, there's always someone there that you may not realize what they're doing,
00:51:18
but there's always someone there to help us along the way.
00:51:24
We have to take advantage of that.
00:51:26
We have to, sometimes these people are put in our lives, well, they are for a reason,
00:51:31
to help us do things we don't know how to do ourselves.
00:51:35
I've had an amazing editor, I've had people who just supporting me, just saying, talking
00:51:42
to me, saying, hey, you've got this, you can do it.
00:51:46
I know you can do it.
00:51:49
That's important.
00:51:51
Whenever you're doing something I've learned in my life, whenever I'm doing something,
00:51:57
there's always, always have those cheerleaders, even if it's friends, family, or just strangers,
00:52:02
random strangers.
00:52:05
We have to listen to those people because they're put there for a reason.
00:52:09
Yes, that's true.
00:52:11
It reminds me of hearing, I heard one time that you might not have all of the details
00:52:19
sorted out, but once you get moving, once you put that plan in action, things start
00:52:26
to fall in place.
00:52:27
Like you were saying, I didn't know how to edit.
00:52:29
I didn't know much about social media, but once you started doing your part, you're
00:52:35
doing your part, these other people started to come into your life or they were setting
00:52:38
your life to where everything kind of worked out and it formed into what it is now.
00:52:46
That is a book that is thorough, that is deep, and a true crime blockbuster.
00:52:54
Yes, I believe it is a blockbuster.
00:53:00
Pepper Ann.
00:53:01
This was very fascinating.
00:53:03
I also am going to leave all of your social media links and all of your information in
00:53:10
the description box so people hearing this, they can reach out to you.
00:53:15
They can see more of this story that you have written.
00:53:20
Once again, this is the notorious Texas Swindler.
00:53:25
Yes, and I would love it if people would come onto my website and have created a blog and
00:53:32
I write conversations that I've had with Bob over the years, funny things.
00:53:38
You always want to tell on a family member, but in a good way.
00:53:44
I have my website set up and I would love it if people would interact with me.
00:53:49
Come to the website, drop me a line, tell me your thoughts on this or that and check
00:53:58
it out.
00:53:59
It's really neat.
00:54:02
Like I said, I didn't know anything about social media, so my assistant is the one who
00:54:06
set the website up and she did a wonderful job.
00:54:10
So you're still learning the ropes?
00:54:13
Yes, I'm trying.
00:54:15
Aren't we all though?
00:54:16
Every day we have to learn something new and I'm constantly.
00:54:19
But you know what?
00:54:21
When it comes to research and writing, I'm there.
00:54:26
I've got that down.
00:54:27
You're bread and butter.
00:54:29
Well, I think so.
00:54:30
I know how to put my nose in people's businesses that don't want it there and I am only talking
00:54:39
about criminals.
00:54:40
I'm not talking about family members.
00:54:43
The modern day inspector gadget.
00:54:46
Yes, that's right.
00:54:48
Yeah, that was inspiring.
00:54:52
Like I told you, just the thought of everything that you went through to make sure that your
00:55:00
passion, your goal, which you had your eyes set on was set out to manifest and become.
00:55:09
So that was inspiring for me in general to hear that and I appreciate your time.
00:55:15
Was there anything else that you would like to leave the listeners with before we get
00:55:21
ready to wrap this up?
00:55:23
I would like to say that there were several times when I wanted to give up on a dream that
00:55:30
I'd had.
00:55:31
I'd always wanted to be a published author and it just so happened that my first story
00:55:37
was an exciting one and whatever your dreams, your goals, your hopes are, just keep going.
00:55:46
It was very difficult for me, but I did it and I know that at times it can be challenging,
00:55:52
but just keep going.
00:55:53
Find whatever positive influence you can around you and just grab onto it and just keep going.
00:56:04
Don't give up on yourselves.
00:56:06
Beautiful.
00:56:07
And I have one more wild card question for you.
00:56:10
Sure.
00:56:11
So what, just one thing, what brings joy to Pepper Ann's heart?
00:56:21
I think seeing other people happy doing what they want to do in life.
00:56:28
We're all here for a short time and seeing others enjoy what they want to do.
00:56:37
There's too many critical things in this world, too many judgments and we need to step back
00:56:42
and just realize people are who they are.
00:56:45
I enjoy, I enjoy my family, my friends, I enjoy those inspirational stories.
00:56:52
That's what brings joy to me, hearing other people who've had wonderful stories, wonderful
00:56:58
things happen to them.
00:57:00
That's truly what brings joy to me.
00:57:04
Beautifully put.
00:57:05
Thank you so much for your time.
00:57:07
I enjoyed this and I wish you the best in all of your endeavors.
00:57:14
Thank you so much.
00:57:15
Thank you again for having me.
00:57:16
I had a really great time.
00:57:20
You've got to respect her grit.
00:57:24
The hard to face backlash, threats, harassment, head on because there was something more at
00:57:31
stake.
00:57:32
The truth, no matter the cost.
00:57:35
And like Pepper Ann said, at one point there was a time when I thought this would be the
00:57:41
last thing that I do.
00:57:44
She had family to support her along the way and a team that she's thankful for that helped
00:57:49
with getting her story published.
00:57:51
Plus, it was a whole lot of drive, a lot of will and conviction to stand on moral and
00:57:58
integrity, to stand for something so wholeheartedly that there was no way she was going to sit
00:58:04
down idly and do nothing or say nothing.
00:58:08
I can respect that.
00:58:10
And I think that's a testament to what the human spirit can do when faced with challenges.
00:58:15
From writing a book to kicking a bad habit or any goal or aspirations that we might have,
00:58:21
if it's something that you truly want, don't let nothing get in the way or stop you from
00:58:26
going after it.
00:58:28
So once again, thank you Pepper Ann for sitting down with us to share your story.
00:58:32
You can find her book, The Notorious Texas Swindler, the mastermind behind the Grayson
00:58:38
County Five.
00:58:40
You can find it in paperback if that's your thing, hardback or even on Kindle.
00:58:45
And if you go to her website, which is pepperannauthor.com, you can even get yourself a signed copy.
00:58:52
Her book's available on Amazon and any one of your favorite retailers.
00:58:57
And if you do happen to get yourself a copy, write a review, share your feedback on what
00:59:02
you felt about the story, how you felt about the story.
00:59:06
She would be happy and love to hear your thoughts about it.
00:59:10
She can also be found on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook.
00:59:14
All of that will be left in the description box for those of you interested in reaching
00:59:19
out to her, getting in contact with her and learning more about what she has going on
00:59:24
and the things she's involved with.
00:59:26
I know she'd be happy to hear from you.
00:59:28
And a big thank you once again to all the listeners, to everybody that has shown their
00:59:33
support, that has tuned in to those of you who have shared your story, speaking of stories,
00:59:40
if you would like to share your story or even a story of someone in your life that has impacted
00:59:47
you in a positive way.
00:59:49
You can always reach out to me via email.
00:59:52
I'd be happy to connect.
00:59:53
And let's not forget to spread the word, tell a friend, share it with the neighbor, give
00:59:58
the show, if it resonates with you, if you find it of any value to you, give it a rating,
01:00:04
a review on whichever platform it is you're listening to that'll help spread this thing
01:00:09
organically.
01:00:12
Till next time, and very soon.
01:00:16
Peace.