Real stories, told by real people.
We are back with another one, I hope this finds you in good spirits. Everything is good on my end, just getting over a little cold. But nothing some rest, vitamins, good tea, and hearty home cooked meals couldn't take care of. My lovely wife played a big part in nursing me back to health haha. So let's get on with the show, shall we. Today Patricia joins us, and she has a story to tell.
It was bold and courageous of Patricia to share some very traumatic and difficult details in her life with us. She's here to bring hope and support to those in need - the abused, ignored, and broken. We Were a Nice Normal Family: A Memoir of Recovery from C-PTSD and the Trauma of Narcissistic Abuse is available, packed with psychological insights, and practical resources to help others in their healing journey.
Some of the topics touched on today :
- Complex trauma and how it can affect relationships
- Sexual abuse
- Rebuilding a life after trauma
- Self compassion, and it's never too late to start embracing adventure
- Life as a forensic psychologist
- Earning two Master’s degrees and starting a doctoral program in Clinical Psychology in her 50's
- and more
I'm pleased to introduce another GIANTS AMONGST US. Hope you enjoy the conversation. And to reach out or share some of your own thoughts you can find us on any of the links below.
'Til next time
and very soon,
PEACE!
_____
IF YOU ENJOYED THE SHOW, AND LIKE TO SUPPORT US,
RATE AND REVIEW US HERE :
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Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/show/1NtBrXqO1rJIZabduZyVC5
_____
Patricia Grenelle :
Memoir : https://a.co/d/0M359gD
Website : https://www.patriciagrenelle.com/
Substack : https://substack.com/@patriciagrenelle?utm_source=podcasgtguests
_____
Connect With Giants Amongst Us :
Website : https://giantsamongstus.org/
Show Updates & Extras : buymeacoffee.com/Giantsamongstus
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Reddit : https://www.reddit.com/user/RichVocals80/
_____
Intro Song :
Facesoul - Grow / slowed + reverb
00:00:11 --> 00:00:51 after the darkness You'll surely grow To heal
00:00:51 --> 00:01:00 past the sorrow That been keeping you low So...
00:01:15 --> 00:01:21 light as we bring in episode number 59 how do
00:01:21 --> 00:01:26 you do welcome back it's good to be back this
00:01:26 --> 00:01:31 is Giants amongst us a place where we share in
00:01:31 --> 00:01:34 the unique human experience and this is where
00:01:34 --> 00:01:38 you're going to hear real stories that are told
00:01:38 --> 00:01:43 by real people people just like yourself No matter
00:01:43 --> 00:01:45 where you're at right now or how deep a hole
00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 there is, there's always a rope to grab. It's
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 just a matter of how you're going to use it.
00:01:50 --> 00:01:53 And the feeling I got after I would write an
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 incident that happened growing up, it was like
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 the world was lifted off my shoulders and I became
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 addicted to that feeling. The Jesuits will tell
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 you, give me the boy from one to seven and I'll
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 show you the man. Well, the one to seven for
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 me was chaos, you know, that ended with the death
00:02:10 --> 00:02:14 of my very dear brother. I hope you all are doing
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 well. And if this is your first time tuning into
00:02:17 --> 00:02:21 the show, we appreciate you. Kick your feet up.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:24 Please do stay a while. If you've listened to
00:02:24 --> 00:02:26 the show before, if you've been here before,
00:02:26 --> 00:02:31 if you're no stranger, you are appreciated just
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 the same. And I want to thank those of you who
00:02:34 --> 00:02:37 have reached out, wanting to share your story,
00:02:37 --> 00:02:41 interested in sharing your experiences with others
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 in the hopes that maybe your words and some of
00:02:45 --> 00:02:46 the things that you've been through and some
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 of the lessons you learn can help somebody help
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52 themselves in their current situation that's
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 what it's about growing with one another building
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 with one another instead of tearing each other
00:02:58 --> 00:03:02 down each one teach one and we are the ones that
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 are able to create those new possibilities let
00:03:05 --> 00:03:08 me not stall it out too much longer I just want
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 to point anybody who is interested in learning
00:03:11 --> 00:03:15 more about the show if you want to just look
00:03:15 --> 00:03:19 more into what we're doing and find us online
00:03:19 --> 00:03:22 all of the different ways that you can find us
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 online you'll find the links in the show notes
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 alright I believe the stage is set now today
00:03:28 --> 00:03:32 Patricia joins us and she has a story to tell
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 that we were still a nice, normal family. In
00:03:36 --> 00:03:41 other words, my parents were in denial that the
00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 husband of their oldest daughter was a pedophile.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 I have three sisters, one 10 years older and
00:03:47 --> 00:03:53 my senior, and she was married. One was 17 months
00:03:53 --> 00:03:56 older, and one was 10 years younger than me.
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 And I think my parents were aware of the ongoing
00:03:59 --> 00:04:03 inappropriate remarks and innuendos. and my brother
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 -in -law's accidental walking into the unlocked
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 bathroom when my sister and I were in there.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 But I don't think they knew the full extent of
00:04:11 --> 00:04:17 his behaviors. Ladies and gentlemen, this is
00:04:17 --> 00:04:24 Patricia and her story. Patricia, thank you again,
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 once again, for wanting to be a part of this.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29 You could have been doing anything. You could
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 have been anywhere, but... We're having a little
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 sit down and talking some story. And yeah, I'm
00:04:36 --> 00:04:40 just looking forward to you unpacking some more
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 of your life's journey and some of your experiences.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:46 What made you what molded you and what shaped
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 you into the woman that sits before me here today.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 We spoke a couple of days back. So, yeah, I'm
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 really looking forward to it. Thank you again
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 for being a part of it. Welcome to the show.
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 Thank you. You know, just to kind of unpack.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 some of your life story, if you don't mind sharing
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 a bit about where you come from and some of your
00:05:05 --> 00:05:07 background and a bit of how it was for you growing
00:05:07 --> 00:05:12 up. Okay, well, my background, I grew up in Illinois,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:18 then my parents moved to Colorado. And that's
00:05:18 --> 00:05:23 kind of when things started to go downhill. How
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 about if I give you the name of the book, the
00:05:26 --> 00:05:28 title of the book, and then go from there? Yeah,
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 that's perfect. You can take it however you want
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 to take it, yeah. It's called, We Were a Nice
00:05:33 --> 00:05:38 Normal Family, a Memoir of Recovery from Complex
00:05:38 --> 00:05:42 PTSD and the Generation of Trauma of Narcissistic
00:05:42 --> 00:05:46 Abuse. It's a long title. It is, it is, but I
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 guess in a short, compact way, explains and unravels
00:05:51 --> 00:05:55 what you had to deal with and you had to suffer
00:05:55 --> 00:06:00 very, very early on in your life. Right. It was
00:06:00 --> 00:06:04 really early on. The title is meant to suggest
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 that despite there being ongoing sexual abuse
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 in the family, that we were still a nice, normal
00:06:10 --> 00:06:15 family. In other words, my parents were in denial
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 that the husband of their oldest daughter was
00:06:18 --> 00:06:22 a pedophile. I have three sisters, one 10 years
00:06:22 --> 00:06:27 older and my senior, and she was married. One
00:06:27 --> 00:06:31 was 17 months older and one was 10 years younger
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 than me. And I think my parents were aware of
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 the ongoing inappropriate remarks and innuendos.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 And my brother -in -law's accidental walking
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 into the unlocked bathroom when my sister and
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 I were in there. But I don't think they knew
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 the full extent of his behaviors. So the reason
00:06:49 --> 00:06:53 that I wrote this book was because I wanted to
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 let anyone know who's ever struggled in a relationship
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 and couldn't quite understand why. If you've
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 lived through childhood sexual abuse and found
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 yourself repeating painful patterns in adulthood,
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 especially in the way you relate to others, I
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 want you to know you're not alone. I do remember
00:07:11 --> 00:07:15 you bringing that up when we spoke that even.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:19 years later, a few of the men that you involved
00:07:19 --> 00:07:22 yourself with, and then you started to see those
00:07:22 --> 00:07:26 same type of behaviors, the narcissism, the abuse.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:29 And it seems to be that way sometimes for people.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:33 They can come from a dysfunctional background.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 They could come from an unhealthy and abusive
00:07:36 --> 00:07:41 household. And later on in life, they seem to
00:07:41 --> 00:07:45 gravitate to a partner who mirrors or resembles
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 What they were involved with once upon a time,
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 right? My dad worked two jobs. So he was gone
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 quite a bit But my brother -in -law and my sister
00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 were there much of the time so my brother -in
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 -law was the one who was basically the role model
00:08:00 --> 00:08:05 for me and I believe that Men were all about
00:08:05 --> 00:08:10 sexuality and putting women down in essence misogynist
00:08:10 --> 00:08:14 Did you happen to raise? the issue to anybody
00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 around you, like a family or just any adults
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20 that were in your life that you felt that maybe
00:08:20 --> 00:08:23 could have put a stop to it or intervened? When
00:08:23 --> 00:08:26 it became apparent that my 17 -month -old sister
00:08:26 --> 00:08:30 had been abused at an early age, my parents sat
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 down with the brother -in -law and the sister
00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 and asked him to cease and desist. But them not
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 knowing that he was pathological, they believed
00:08:39 --> 00:08:41 that it would work, but it didn't. I don't know
00:08:41 --> 00:08:45 how that makes a child feel when you do turn
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 to somebody and you're not getting the help maybe
00:08:48 --> 00:08:50 that you would have wished for and in a sense
00:08:50 --> 00:08:53 maybe feel like your voice wasn't being heard
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 or it wasn't significant enough. And sometimes
00:08:56 --> 00:09:00 I could just prevent somebody from even wanting
00:09:00 --> 00:09:02 to speak out the next time around. You know,
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 you feel as if the cries or the concerns of yours
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 are just falling on deaf ears. Right, exactly.
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 And with Nobody doing anything about it. It was
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 kind of like okay. This is normal This is what's
00:09:15 --> 00:09:18 supposed to happen and I didn't realize until
00:09:18 --> 00:09:22 I was 27 years old and in therapy That I was
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 a statistic and had been sexually abused because
00:09:25 --> 00:09:27 I thought this was a I thought that there was
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 somebody like that in everybody's family So I
00:09:30 --> 00:09:34 thought it was normal What lifted that veil?
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 to where you started to see, wait a minute, this
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 isn't normal. This isn't something that anybody
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 should be going through. I really didn't learn
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 that until later in life. Because when I was
00:09:48 --> 00:09:50 six years old, my brother -in -law kissed me
00:09:50 --> 00:09:54 on the lips. And I was mortified and I repeated
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 what I'd heard a woman say to a man on a movie
00:09:57 --> 00:10:01 that I'd seen the day before. You fool. And I
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 ran out of the room as fast as I could and I
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 hid. that that's what I think about when women
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 talk about their first kiss. So that was difficult
00:10:10 --> 00:10:13 to deal with. I think my older sister was aware
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 of her husband's predilection, but I believe
00:10:16 --> 00:10:19 that she hoped his behaviors would subside with
00:10:19 --> 00:10:23 time and maturity, but they didn't. So I basically
00:10:23 --> 00:10:26 had my brother -in -law as a person to follow
00:10:26 --> 00:10:32 and know about men. A misogynist is a person
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 who shows hatred, prejudice, or contempt for
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 women and girls. It can manifest as a belief
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 that men are superior, a bias against women,
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 or an aversion. They tend to belittle them, they
00:10:46 --> 00:10:50 use sexual slurs, they seek to control their
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 behavior. And these were the, I guess if you
00:10:53 --> 00:10:55 want to call them that, the role model, but this
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 was the adult in your life that was the one of
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 influence and to pattern those kind of behaviors
00:11:01 --> 00:11:04 and that kind of a sickness was, like you said,
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 it kind of warped your perception of the way
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 life should be and the way that humans or just
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 people should interact with one another. The
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 interpersonal relationships is what I mean to
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 say is that really taints it. You went through
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 this at an early age. You were six years old,
00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 so how... How did this affect you when you were
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 going to school? Did you have trouble interacting
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 with the children? Yes, it did. As a matter of
00:11:27 --> 00:11:31 fact, I was so paranoid about what was going
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 on. I didn't think that anybody was supposed
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 to talk about sexuality and that sort of thing.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:42 So some of the boys would say things to me and
00:11:42 --> 00:11:43 I would just pretend like I didn't know what
00:11:43 --> 00:11:46 they were talking about or I would ignore them.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 They would you know make jokes about a bra strap
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 that had broken loose or whatever and somebody
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 was lopsided and I just ignored that and they
00:11:56 --> 00:12:01 gave me a nickname of neuter And I looked it
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 up in the dictionary and I'm like, oh my gosh
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 That's really bad because that means that I don't
00:12:06 --> 00:12:10 have any sexuality at all. So I thought I was
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 really different from everybody kind of feeling
00:12:13 --> 00:12:17 is that that the outcast or maybe ostracized
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 from your peers in a way. Exactly. Yeah. There
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 wasn't really anybody in your life that you could
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 turn to or you felt that you had the support
00:12:25 --> 00:12:31 to lean on and express what's going on or just
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 open yourself up to the reality that has been
00:12:35 --> 00:12:39 going on behind closed doors. So even later on
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 in your adult years, This was something that
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 you struggled with and you said that it manifested
00:12:44 --> 00:12:47 itself into the relationships that you developed
00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 in your adult years with men and some of the
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 broken relationships because of that. Right,
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 because I was attracted to that type of men.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:01 I married a narcissistic person and I was married
00:13:01 --> 00:13:05 to him for 11 years. Wow. And I finally left
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 him and I married another narcissistic person
00:13:08 --> 00:13:14 who was also a misogynist. And I left him after
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 about six years. And then I met my third husband
00:13:17 --> 00:13:23 who was normal. And he's not a narcissist and
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 he's not a misogynist. And he was very good to
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 me. So I was lucky that I met him. Third one
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 was a charm. When you were dealing with, say
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 your first husband or your second husband, during
00:13:39 --> 00:13:42 any of those periods in your life where you are
00:13:42 --> 00:13:45 already seeking counseling or looking for some
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 type of way to deal with the trauma and the abuse
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 you had been through early on in life? Yes, I
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 sought counseling quite early in that time frame.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:58 As a teenager and up until I was probably 28,
00:13:58 --> 00:14:03 29 years old, I had ongoing therapy. That's what
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 I said when I learned that I was a statistic
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 because my therapists told me that I had been
00:14:09 --> 00:14:14 sexually abused when I was that age. So it was
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 kind of a surprise to me because I'd learned
00:14:16 --> 00:14:20 about kids who'd been sexually abused and I thought
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 really bad about it. But then I realized I was
00:14:23 --> 00:14:27 one of them and I was like, oh my gosh. You were
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 involved with therapy in your teenage years.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:35 Yes. Was that your choice or did somebody intervene?
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 Mine. And did it manifest in other ways symptoms
00:14:39 --> 00:14:43 like say depression or where you spoke of paranoia
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 or the anxiety? Yeah, I had complex PTSD from
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 about the age of six on. Wow. And I've been dealing
00:14:50 --> 00:14:54 with that my whole life. And that includes depression
00:14:54 --> 00:14:59 and anxiety and a myriad of other things. Wow.
00:14:59 --> 00:15:03 Physical problems, all kinds of things. Wow.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:08 That's the deep wounds. that someone can carry
00:15:08 --> 00:15:12 and how they can affect you just in a whole from
00:15:12 --> 00:15:16 the physical to the mental to the emotional to
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 psychological just in so many different ways
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 and something that you said you're still to this
00:15:22 --> 00:15:26 day dealing with and not to dismiss it but after
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29 going through all of that and then you seeking
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 the counseling going through the counseling to
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 try to make sense of it all, to try to heal yourself
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 from some of these wounds, or you're not going
00:15:38 --> 00:15:42 to, by no means you won't ever be able to forget
00:15:42 --> 00:15:46 it or rid yourself of it, but you can learn to
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 live with it in a healthier way. And it seems
00:15:48 --> 00:15:52 that over the years, you were able to get better
00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 with this. I also wanted to bring up, because
00:15:54 --> 00:15:59 it was an interesting part of your life was the
00:15:59 --> 00:16:03 fact that you went back to school and you you
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 happened to get a couple of degrees in a doctorate
00:16:07 --> 00:16:11 later on in your life. And this was a career
00:16:11 --> 00:16:15 path that you you embarked on for it was, if
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 I remember correctly, it was about eight years
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20 or so. And it was crime forensic psychologist.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 So what exactly were you were you doing for those
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 eight or nine years? It was forensic psychology.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 I had wanted to get an education early on, but
00:16:28 --> 00:16:31 I married my husband when I was really like only
00:16:31 --> 00:16:34 18. And he didn't want me to go to school. He
00:16:34 --> 00:16:39 didn't want me to get an education. So I did
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 the best I could in trying to take correspondence
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 courses and things like that over a period of
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46 time. But he'd say, oh, we can't afford that.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 You can't do that. And that really wasn't the
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 case. It was just because he didn't want me to.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 And then when I married my second husband, he
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 was the same way and he didn't want any education
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 or anything like that. And he didn't want me
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 to have any more education. So I did more correspondence
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 courses and things like that. I finally ended
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 up getting my bachelor's degree in 1986. And
00:17:11 --> 00:17:18 that was like a long time coming. So then I met
00:17:18 --> 00:17:22 my current husband. And he was fine with wanting
00:17:22 --> 00:17:24 to get more education and everything, so I got
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 a master's degree in human services counseling
00:17:28 --> 00:17:32 and one in clinical psychology. And then I went
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 on to get the doctorate in clinical psychology.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 Good on you. It's never too late to get the party
00:17:38 --> 00:17:44 started, huh? Yeah, really. And on account of,
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 not to keep going back to it, but the things
00:17:46 --> 00:17:50 that you went through, at an early age, so young
00:17:50 --> 00:17:54 in your life, and then to get involved in that
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 line of work and to choose that career path.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 Was it because of some of that past of yours
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 that you feel nudged you in that direction to
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 where this was something that you wanted to do?
00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 And I'd just like to know what your motivation
00:18:09 --> 00:18:11 or inspiration was. Yeah, I basically identify
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 with people who have been traumatized in that
00:18:14 --> 00:18:19 way. And I like helping them. I helped like helping
00:18:19 --> 00:18:25 them realize that it's not their fault. It's
00:18:25 --> 00:18:28 important that they realize that and begin to
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31 take steps to change things in their life, to
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 make themselves feel better, make their lives
00:18:33 --> 00:18:37 better. But yeah, that's why I was drawn to that
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 because I wondered why people did the things
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 that they did. So that's why I ended up with
00:18:43 --> 00:18:48 the degrees that I had. And you've already, during
00:18:48 --> 00:18:52 this time, while you were working as a forensic
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 crime psychologist, as you were working, you
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 had already went through years of therapy and
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 counseling and so to be able to... sit in front
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 of these people who now you're on the other end
00:19:04 --> 00:19:06 of it. You've been the abused and now you're
00:19:06 --> 00:19:09 dealing with the abuser. There's a lot of different
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 crimes that they were involved with and they're
00:19:11 --> 00:19:14 pretty harsh and horrific. To sit across from
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 them or to deal with these cases, was that pretty
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 hard? There's some things that can trigger you
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 or just reopen up wounds and to hear these experiences
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 and to go through that, was that kind of tough
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 to do in the beginning? Yeah, it was something
00:19:26 --> 00:19:30 that I had to kind of maintain. you know, on
00:19:30 --> 00:19:35 it. I worked with rapists and murderers, arsonists,
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 bank robbers, and I sat in a room with them across
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 the table, and we had therapy, and trying to
00:19:42 --> 00:19:46 deal with some of the issues was difficult. I
00:19:46 --> 00:19:48 had one young man, not a young man, he was in
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 his 40s, and all he wanted to do was mess with
00:19:51 --> 00:19:55 a five -year -old, and he said that, and I was
00:19:55 --> 00:19:57 like, oh my gosh, you know, that's really bad.
00:19:57 --> 00:20:00 You hear sometimes, and I just want to get your
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 opinion on it, you hear sometimes some people
00:20:03 --> 00:20:07 say that everybody can be changed or be saved.
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 And with the people that you dealt with, do you
00:20:10 --> 00:20:11 feel that way, or do you think there's some people
00:20:11 --> 00:20:15 that they're just so far gone that there is no,
00:20:15 --> 00:20:17 there's no helping them? I think there's some
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 people that are so far gone, there's no helping
00:20:20 --> 00:20:23 them. There were certain ones that I had that
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 I felt like they were just they were too high
00:20:26 --> 00:20:30 on the sociopathy score and they didn't have
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 any ability to recognize anybody else's feelings.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 They were just inconsistently really void of
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 any feelings of anything for anybody. They didn't
00:20:43 --> 00:20:47 understand how people felt and how they made
00:20:47 --> 00:20:51 people feel. You've looked evil in the face.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:53 How many years exactly was it eight years then
00:20:53 --> 00:20:57 eight or nine years? Yeah, that's a long time
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 and also just how you're able to turn or if you
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04 were even able to turn that off after a day's
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 work and to be at home with your husband to enjoy
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 a dinner or to go out and Enjoy yourself and
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13 not have that weighing on your conscience. If
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 you have a heart, which I know you do, this is
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 going to be taxing on you in all sorts of ways.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:23 And I wonder how you were able to balance that
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 out or if you did have trouble at sometimes just
00:21:26 --> 00:21:32 being able to enjoy life away from it without
00:21:32 --> 00:21:36 that being a constant whisper echo in the back
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 of your head or just on your conscience. Yeah,
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 it was difficult at times. I went through periods
00:21:41 --> 00:21:44 of time when I was kind of depressed over it
00:21:44 --> 00:21:47 or I had nightmares about some of the issues
00:21:47 --> 00:21:52 that the patients talked about. It was difficult
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 at times. But for the most part, I got through
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 it fairly well. My husband was very supportive
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 and that was great. Yeah, that's great to have.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 There was something else that I was always curious
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 about and this was what we spoke of earlier.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 prior to this conversation, but the whole insanity
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 plea. Right. I worked with not guilty by reason
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 of insanity. Yeah, there you go. And you also
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 had a lot of cases having to do with that? Yes,
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 all my cases were not guilty by reason of insanity.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 Oh, all of them were? Yeah, I had a caseload
00:22:27 --> 00:22:31 of that. Oh, wow. Okay. I was just Fascinating
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 when I heard about you and your career path in
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 this, because like I told you, this is something
00:22:36 --> 00:22:40 that I follow along when my wife and I, we watched
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 as I shared with you True Crime. And so did you
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45 notice any patterns that they shared, whether
00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 it was upbringing, whether it was things that
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 they went through younger, early on in life?
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 Did you see certain things that a lot of them
00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 had in common? Yeah, most of them had some form
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 of abuse as a child. either emotional or sexual
00:23:01 --> 00:23:05 or something that was not right in their childhood.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09 That was that was a common theme. Did you happen
00:23:09 --> 00:23:11 to have any of them? You did say that there was
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 a lot of them that you dealt with that there
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 was no saving them. It seemed as if they were
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 just too far gone. But was there any that you
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 you felt that there was a genuine change in their
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 behavior and their attitude? And yeah, there
00:23:25 --> 00:23:29 was there was a few that. came around and kind
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 of, you know, they got on their medications and
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 they were doing what they were supposed to be
00:23:34 --> 00:23:38 doing. And there wasn't a lot of them though.
00:23:38 --> 00:23:42 There was a few of the ones that I worked with.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 A handful. You can't save them all, but you sure
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 did do your part. What was the reason? Was there
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 any reason in particular where you finally said,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 all right, I'm ready to just hang it up. Enough
00:23:52 --> 00:23:56 is enough. I was medically retired. How old were
00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 you again exactly when you went back to school
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 to get to get your doctorate or to get your your
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 degree before oh, yeah, I went back to get the
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 doctorate there were a lot of students in the
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 courses that I took who were a whole bunch younger
00:24:09 --> 00:24:13 than me, you know 20 years some of them and That
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 was kind of difficult at times. Yeah, and it
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 made it more interesting Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and
00:24:19 --> 00:24:22 you and you did it two degrees your doctorate
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 You went through your career of crime, forensic
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 psychologist. That's one heavy load to carry.
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 And it seemed like you carried it like a champ
00:24:32 --> 00:24:34 with the help of your husband, your loving husband,
00:24:34 --> 00:24:38 who was by your side. Did you have anything in
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 particular that started to nudge at you to want
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 to write a memoir? Because you do have a memoir.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 You mentioned it in the very beginning and laid
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 out the title. But was there any nudging in you
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 in specific that made you want to write this
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 or how did that play out? Basically, my sister
00:24:54 --> 00:24:58 was really abused, sexually abused by this brother
00:24:58 --> 00:25:04 -in -law and I felt it was necessary for her
00:25:04 --> 00:25:09 to write this book and write this book for people
00:25:09 --> 00:25:14 who are in situations like that and they don't
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 recognize it because I did not recognize for
00:25:16 --> 00:25:19 so long that I was in that type of a situation
00:25:19 --> 00:25:23 and that I was dealing with. narcissists and
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 misogynists. And I think there's a lot of people
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 who are in relationships who don't recognize
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 that they can do better. They can have a better
00:25:32 --> 00:25:37 life. And the perpetrator, this one who was a
00:25:37 --> 00:25:41 pathological pedophile, there was nothing that
00:25:41 --> 00:25:45 was ever done with him, correct? He was free
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 this whole time? Correct. He was never arrested.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:52 He was never nothing. He just continued to do
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 this through his entire life, as far as I know.
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 Wow. Unreal. Sometimes the concerns, the cries
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 of the victims go unheard. And other times, there's
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 people who maybe see red flags, but they don't
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 want to believe it. They turn a blind eye. The
00:26:08 --> 00:26:12 sad but true reality is that this seems to be
00:26:12 --> 00:26:16 so common. somebody you know, somebody within
00:26:16 --> 00:26:20 your own family, a neighbor, a friend, or someone
00:26:20 --> 00:26:25 in your circle, my circle, and everybody's circle
00:26:25 --> 00:26:29 who has either been violated in this way or maybe
00:26:29 --> 00:26:34 has someone that they know personally who is
00:26:34 --> 00:26:39 the violator, is the perpetrator. Right. The
00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 statistics are really amazing. There's one organization
00:26:42 --> 00:26:48 that I got some statistics from the RAINN .org
00:26:48 --> 00:26:52 and they come up with some stats that are just
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 amazing. I've got that information in the book.
00:26:55 --> 00:26:58 All the statistical stuff about how many kids
00:26:58 --> 00:27:02 are abused and the whole thing. Yeah, you did
00:27:02 --> 00:27:06 mention before anybody who is having to register
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 as a sex offender, their information is public
00:27:09 --> 00:27:11 knowledge. So if anybody, I mean, what people
00:27:11 --> 00:27:15 can do is you can just make a quick search online
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 and look at your area. And a lot of people that
00:27:19 --> 00:27:21 I know that have done that, like I said, I live
00:27:21 --> 00:27:23 in Germany. I don't know if we have that option
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 or if there's something like that here. I'm pretty
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 sure that there must be, but a lot of people
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 that I know that said they've done that in the
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 past. or they've done that just out of curiosity,
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 and they've seen that right where they live that
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 it just bleeped red everywhere. And some of them
00:27:39 --> 00:27:43 were near schools. I mentioned, I told you this
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 before, some are near schools, and I always thought
00:27:46 --> 00:27:48 that was illegal. You're not supposed to be within
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 a certain amount, a certain distance from a school,
00:27:52 --> 00:27:55 but for whatever reason, that's allowed. And
00:27:55 --> 00:27:57 some of these sex offenders are still near schools
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 and near children. Yeah, it's really sad. I have
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 a thing on my telephone by the local police department.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:07 They put out the information if somebody has
00:28:07 --> 00:28:10 moved into the area who's a sexual offender.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:12 They have given us the name, his address, the
00:28:12 --> 00:28:16 whole bit, and say he's like 1 .6 miles from
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 your house. And there's a lot of them out there.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 It's pretty damn terrible. The sad truth of it
00:28:23 --> 00:28:28 is that it's so common, and you know firsthand
00:28:28 --> 00:28:34 of it. your writing this book was rehashing out
00:28:34 --> 00:28:39 a lot of the experiences that you had early on.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 And do you also mention or do you talk about
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 your later years or is it more just about the
00:28:45 --> 00:28:48 early upbringing of yours? No, some of the later
00:28:48 --> 00:28:53 years up until I was married the third time.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 Okay. And how was it for you again with writing
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 it? Was it a bit retraumatizing or was it opening
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03 up some old wounds that you had to deal with
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 once again or how was that revisiting some of
00:29:05 --> 00:29:08 the past and memories that you may have forgotten
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 or you pretty much suppressed or blacked out
00:29:12 --> 00:29:16 for so long? I did have some difficulties through
00:29:16 --> 00:29:21 parts of it and I was rather disturbed and sometimes
00:29:21 --> 00:29:25 it just was too much for me. I'd sit down and
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 write something for the day and then I'd go to
00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 bed at night and I'd wake up in the middle of
00:29:29 --> 00:29:32 the night having nightmares. It was pretty common
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 as a matter of fact for me to do that. So it
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 was challenging to put all this down, but I think
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 it was therapeutic. I feel like it was a positive
00:29:43 --> 00:29:47 thing for me to do and I think that other people
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 would benefit from it as well. Therapy as writing,
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 some form of releasing some of this these experiences
00:29:56 --> 00:30:00 and these traumas that we store in our body and
00:30:00 --> 00:30:04 we store our subconscious holds onto it. Even
00:30:04 --> 00:30:07 if we don't, sometimes you just completely, maybe
00:30:07 --> 00:30:10 just the simple fact of survival, you forget
00:30:10 --> 00:30:13 it, it's blacked out, it's just a thing of the
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 past. But then sometimes later on in life, there's
00:30:16 --> 00:30:18 something that happens and it triggers a memory.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 You're like, wait a minute, this is... and you're
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 recounting or revisiting something that may have
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 happened that you completely forgot, but it's
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 still there. Is your memoir complete or you're
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 just about wrapping it up and finalizing it?
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35 I'm finalizing it right now. I'm just putting
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 in the last statistics and that sort of thing
00:30:38 --> 00:30:41 at the end of it. Okay, that's great to hear.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:45 And also the fact that years later you were able
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 to find your wonderful Wonderful husband who
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50 who seemed to be a big support with you going
00:30:50 --> 00:30:53 back to school with you getting your doctorate
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 with you following your dreams and aspiring for
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 more and even your your own healing and recovery
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 and You dealing with to this day while you said
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 that the physical ailments that you deal with
00:31:04 --> 00:31:07 because of the things early on in your life and
00:31:07 --> 00:31:10 and also the PTSD and I remember you brought
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 up that you had a a service dog. He's there to
00:31:13 --> 00:31:16 help you with you mentioned when you have nightmares.
00:31:17 --> 00:31:19 Right. He's supposed to wake me up when I have
00:31:19 --> 00:31:21 a nightmare. Can you explain that or walk us
00:31:21 --> 00:31:24 through it? Well, if I when I have a nightmare,
00:31:24 --> 00:31:29 I get kind of agitated and talk and say things.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 And he's supposed to come over and lick my face
00:31:32 --> 00:31:35 and tell me to wake up. You know, it kind of
00:31:35 --> 00:31:39 pulls me out of it. His name is JP short for
00:31:39 --> 00:31:42 John Paul. And is he getting better with it,
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44 or you said he still needs a little bit of training
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 with waking you up? I need a little bit of training.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 My husband usually wakes me up first, and then
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 the dog says, oh, okay. Is that your first service
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 dog, or you've had one before? No, it's my first.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 How'd you find out about him? Was this also something
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02 that you were looking for, maybe, if you could
00:32:02 --> 00:32:04 find a little bit of help? When I found out I
00:32:04 --> 00:32:08 had PTSD, I decided that I needed a service dog
00:32:08 --> 00:32:13 to help me through the PTSD. And so I contacted
00:32:13 --> 00:32:18 an organization locally where they train me and
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 the dog. And so we went to a year and a half
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 of training for an hour and a half every week.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 And they trained him and they trained me to train
00:32:29 --> 00:32:33 him to be a service dog. And so he's a certified
00:32:33 --> 00:32:37 service dog. He's a golden doodle. JP the golden
00:32:37 --> 00:32:40 doodle. That's half poodle and half golden retriever.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:44 When you first came in contact with him and you
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 went through the training, was it something did
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 you already have a good connection with him?
00:32:48 --> 00:32:55 He's very, very energetic. So it's been challenging
00:32:55 --> 00:33:00 for me. And because of my age, I'm 74 years old.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 He'll pull really hard when you try to lead him.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 So I can't lead him unless he has a particular
00:33:06 --> 00:33:13 type of thing on his leash. Okay. So he's strong
00:33:13 --> 00:33:16 too. Really strong. He could pull me over on
00:33:16 --> 00:33:19 a heartbeat. Just when I heard what the service
00:33:19 --> 00:33:21 dog was there for and how they were able to do
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 it, I was always curious, how does that work
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 out? And when you told me with the nightmares,
00:33:27 --> 00:33:29 that was something where I was curious about.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 And it just makes sense that because dogs are
00:33:32 --> 00:33:35 real good. Cats, they do the same. They can read
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 somebody's body language. They can read your
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 energy. They can tell when somebody is anxious
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 or what to look out for. So it only makes sense
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 that if he's paying attention and he's trained
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 to do so that, and he sees your movements or
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 your gestures or your shaking or the talking,
00:33:53 --> 00:33:56 then he knows that that's a cue for him to maybe
00:33:56 --> 00:33:59 act and do what he was trained to do. But you
00:33:59 --> 00:34:01 said he still needs a little bit of work in that
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 area. Yeah, he needs a little bit of work in
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 that area. Do you still deal with nightmares
00:34:07 --> 00:34:13 often? Maybe once a week. Wow. And that's the
00:34:13 --> 00:34:18 thing about it. You were so young. You were six
00:34:18 --> 00:34:23 years old. You're now 74, 75 years old. The things
00:34:23 --> 00:34:28 that people can do to somebody and the harm that
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 it's not something that goes away. overnight.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 This is something that somebody has to deal with
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 for the rest of their life. We're talking years
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 later. This is something that you still deal
00:34:41 --> 00:34:46 with through all of it. You've managed to go
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 back to school, get your degrees, get your doctorate.
00:34:49 --> 00:34:53 You were able to find love the third time, to
00:34:53 --> 00:34:57 find a genuine and a beautiful relationship.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:00 And you were able to still live a life that seems
00:35:00 --> 00:35:04 to be fulfilling and meaningful despite everything
00:35:04 --> 00:35:07 that you went through. And that's a beautiful
00:35:07 --> 00:35:10 thing to hear. And as it sounded like that was
00:35:10 --> 00:35:13 a part of you also writing the memoirs because
00:35:13 --> 00:35:16 that you want to be that voice for anybody else
00:35:16 --> 00:35:18 who's going through something. And it seems as
00:35:18 --> 00:35:22 if nobody's listening or I have no outlet or
00:35:22 --> 00:35:27 it seems for them that there is really no light
00:35:27 --> 00:35:30 at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. My life has been
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 very fulfilling for me, especially after I met
00:35:33 --> 00:35:38 my third husband, and it's been good. I was very
00:35:38 --> 00:35:42 lucky. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you had your moments.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 You said there was depression. You still deal
00:35:46 --> 00:35:50 with the nightmares, but you're not rolling over
00:35:50 --> 00:35:54 and just tucking yourself in a corner and crying,
00:35:54 --> 00:35:56 what was me? I'm sure you had those moments and
00:35:56 --> 00:35:59 there's nothing wrong with that, but... You still
00:35:59 --> 00:36:04 seem to live the full life, 74, and still kicking.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:07 There are times when I feel like just going in,
00:36:07 --> 00:36:09 crawling in the bed and pulling the covers over
00:36:09 --> 00:36:12 my head. Sometimes I do that. I think you're
00:36:12 --> 00:36:15 allowed to. There's a time and a place for everything.
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 You get it out of your system, I guess you could
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 say. and then you get back to whatever it is
00:36:21 --> 00:36:26 you you feel is necessary to attend to. So how
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28 do you feel you're retired now? How do you feel
00:36:28 --> 00:36:31 most of your days? You have any hobbies or things
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 you enjoy doing? I was in the military, so I
00:36:34 --> 00:36:39 am a veteran. I participate in two different,
00:36:39 --> 00:36:42 actually three different veteran organizations
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 that look that are local. And we had a parade
00:36:46 --> 00:36:51 on the first of November, where my husband and
00:36:51 --> 00:36:55 I dressed up as Martha and George Washington.
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 And we were in the parade and we sat on the back
00:36:58 --> 00:37:02 of this car and we went through the whole thing.
00:37:02 --> 00:37:06 And then we got found out that they gave us a
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 most best theme for it. So we actually got a,
00:37:10 --> 00:37:14 we got a certificate. Okay. Yeah. How about that?
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 Yeah, pretty nice. And is this an annual parade
00:37:18 --> 00:37:22 that you have over there? It was for 1776. You
00:37:22 --> 00:37:25 know, they wanted to celebrate 1776. So they
00:37:25 --> 00:37:29 had a flyover of old planes and they had all
00:37:29 --> 00:37:33 of us wore costumes from the colonial days. That's
00:37:33 --> 00:37:36 what it was about. Mm hmm. Oh, wow. OK. Yeah,
00:37:37 --> 00:37:41 not bad. And won the prize. Yeah, they were surprised.
00:37:42 --> 00:37:46 And is your husband also retired? Yes, he's retired
00:37:46 --> 00:37:49 Army. Yeah, that's right. Because I do remember
00:37:49 --> 00:37:51 you said that there was a couple of years you
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54 spent in Germany. Did you say it was in Wiesbaden?
00:37:54 --> 00:37:58 In Bad Quesnach. OK. I wonder if that military
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 base is still active. It might not be. I don't
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 know. I don't think it is. I'm not sure. If I'm
00:38:04 --> 00:38:08 not mistaken, I think there's only one active
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11 military base still here. I know there was one
00:38:11 --> 00:38:17 near us. in Darmstadt and that one closed down
00:38:17 --> 00:38:22 in 2001 or it was right before or right after
00:38:22 --> 00:38:26 9 -11. So I can't put my exact finger on it,
00:38:26 --> 00:38:30 but that's interesting. So when you were in the
00:38:30 --> 00:38:32 military, did you get to see any other countries
00:38:32 --> 00:38:36 or was it mainly Germany? No, just Germany. Well,
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39 when I lived in Germany, I went to France and
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 Portugal and Spain and all the other countries
00:38:42 --> 00:38:46 around there, plus Sweden, which is my family
00:38:46 --> 00:38:49 comes from Sweden. So we went to visit family
00:38:49 --> 00:38:53 members. Oh, nice. OK. This was all during that.
00:38:53 --> 00:38:56 How long were you in? We were there for two years
00:38:56 --> 00:38:58 in Germany. So you made the best of it. You've
00:38:58 --> 00:39:02 seen all these countries in two years. Yes. Were
00:39:02 --> 00:39:03 there any that the highlight where you said,
00:39:03 --> 00:39:06 oh, yeah, this this really Touch my heart. This
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 was the one right here. You know anything any
00:39:09 --> 00:39:12 of them in particular the swedish visit was pretty
00:39:12 --> 00:39:16 good it was amazing because they have really
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 really fantastic desserts and everybody in the
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23 family made a dessert and they brought it and
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 they wanted to they wanted us to try the every
00:39:26 --> 00:39:31 piece and so if we did and we took a second of
00:39:31 --> 00:39:33 anything, they would say, well, why do you take
00:39:33 --> 00:39:38 a second of theirs and not of mine? So we had
00:39:38 --> 00:39:42 to, we were like filling our faces with desserts.
00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 As long as you went there with a sweet tooth,
00:39:45 --> 00:39:49 right? Yeah, yeah, had to have a sweet tooth.
00:39:50 --> 00:39:53 But that's what Swedes are about, so that makes
00:39:53 --> 00:39:57 sense. That's nice. I'm always interested in
00:39:57 --> 00:40:01 experiencing other... cultures, foods, countries.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:03 And that's what that's one thing that's been
00:40:03 --> 00:40:04 nice since we've been over here. We've got to
00:40:04 --> 00:40:07 see a lot of different neighboring countries
00:40:07 --> 00:40:09 and even some countries that are on the other
00:40:09 --> 00:40:12 side. But it's always a treat. It's a plus. It's
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14 a big world out there. And when you're able to
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16 see something different, why not? Yeah, really.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 I don't know if I brought this up, but the trauma
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 and the abuse that you went through and the the
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 counseling. you spoke about and you spoke about
00:40:27 --> 00:40:29 writing the memoir in a way that was therapeutic
00:40:29 --> 00:40:33 and even with the help of your now husband, he
00:40:33 --> 00:40:36 also has been very supportive and helpful with
00:40:36 --> 00:40:39 your recovery and your healing process. Were
00:40:39 --> 00:40:43 those the key components to help you deal with,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:47 cope with, and better live with the things that
00:40:47 --> 00:40:51 you had to deal with when you were younger? Yeah,
00:40:51 --> 00:40:54 I think all of those were part and parcel of
00:40:54 --> 00:40:59 it. And they were all very important pieces that
00:40:59 --> 00:41:03 kind of combine it together for me to be able
00:41:03 --> 00:41:06 to get through it. For you with the therapy and
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 the counseling, was it more talk therapy or did
00:41:08 --> 00:41:11 they also give you tools, certain tools to help
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13 out? Like say if you were feeling triggered or
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 you were feeling as if you were losing your bearings
00:41:17 --> 00:41:19 on your things that you were dealing with emotionally
00:41:19 --> 00:41:23 and inside. The therapy that I found the most
00:41:23 --> 00:41:25 helpful was psychodynamic, and that was talk
00:41:25 --> 00:41:28 therapy. They also did cognitive behavioral,
00:41:28 --> 00:41:36 which I don't find helpful at all. But I did
00:41:36 --> 00:41:39 do really well with the person who did the psychodynamic.
00:41:40 --> 00:41:43 And he kind of brought it out to me, OK, look,
00:41:44 --> 00:41:47 here's the situation. Here's what you were up
00:41:47 --> 00:41:50 against. and what you thought you were supposed
00:41:50 --> 00:41:54 to do when you were that age. And that wasn't
00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 the case. So do you realize how that changes
00:41:56 --> 00:42:00 over time and how it's gonna be different the
00:42:00 --> 00:42:02 way you treat other people and the way other
00:42:02 --> 00:42:07 people treat you? So it all kind of... fell into
00:42:07 --> 00:42:10 place once he put it like that, because I was
00:42:10 --> 00:42:13 like, oh, OK. So you were you were able to see
00:42:13 --> 00:42:15 that later in your life or later in years, how
00:42:15 --> 00:42:17 it was affecting the way you were dealing with
00:42:17 --> 00:42:20 yourself, how you were dealing with other people,
00:42:20 --> 00:42:22 the interpersonal relationships that you were
00:42:22 --> 00:42:27 having in garnering in your life. Exactly. Yeah,
00:42:27 --> 00:42:29 because it changes the relationships that you
00:42:29 --> 00:42:32 have with everybody. And the big part of it too
00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 is also the relationship that we have with ourselves,
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 right? Whether it's the self -worth or we're
00:42:39 --> 00:42:44 just, we're damaged. We feel as if we're insignificant
00:42:44 --> 00:42:48 or we feel as if we have no self -esteem or just
00:42:48 --> 00:42:51 everything to do with our inner inner talk or
00:42:51 --> 00:42:54 how we feel about ourselves. That's what I like
00:42:54 --> 00:42:57 to hear and when I speak with people because
00:42:57 --> 00:42:58 there's a lot of different things that help for
00:42:58 --> 00:43:01 them. There's some people that talk about it
00:43:01 --> 00:43:05 seems a lot of people have found that writing
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 has been very helpful for them, whether it's
00:43:08 --> 00:43:12 just to unpack and just release all of these
00:43:12 --> 00:43:15 thoughts or emotions and to put it on the page.
00:43:15 --> 00:43:18 Some people they don't even plan on. I was told
00:43:18 --> 00:43:20 once that even if you don't You don't want to
00:43:20 --> 00:43:23 do anything with it, but sometimes you write
00:43:23 --> 00:43:25 something and you can just burn it. You can just
00:43:25 --> 00:43:27 rip it and throw it away. But just to write it
00:43:27 --> 00:43:30 and just express yourself and just kind of release
00:43:30 --> 00:43:33 whatever it is that's inside of you rather than
00:43:33 --> 00:43:35 bottling it up. That could that could be helpful.
00:43:35 --> 00:43:38 And that could be, in a sense, healing and cleansing.
00:43:38 --> 00:43:41 It's like you're purging yourself of of these
00:43:41 --> 00:43:44 things that. have been a part of you and plaguing
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47 you for so long. So I think writing is a huge
00:43:47 --> 00:43:49 tool for a lot of people. And it seems like it
00:43:49 --> 00:43:51 really has been a big tool in your life also.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54 And you didn't you weren't journaling or anything
00:43:54 --> 00:43:56 prior to that, right? This was just something.
00:43:56 --> 00:43:59 No, I just decided about a year ago that I was
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 going to do it and I started writing it. And
00:44:01 --> 00:44:04 then I looked at it and I thought, hmm, I might
00:44:04 --> 00:44:08 be able to make something of this. And I decided
00:44:08 --> 00:44:12 that I wanted to do it for other people. So it's
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15 been about a year coming? Yeah, about a year.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 Okay, and we're gonna keep in touch. So when
00:44:19 --> 00:44:22 you do have this release date, when you do plan
00:44:22 --> 00:44:25 on publishing it, that is something that I'm
00:44:25 --> 00:44:27 going to include in the show notes. And you also
00:44:27 --> 00:44:29 have a website, correct? Or do you have a...
00:44:29 --> 00:44:36 Yes, I do. It's patriciagranel .com. And is this
00:44:36 --> 00:44:39 where you share some writings, blog posts, or?
00:44:39 --> 00:44:42 Yes. You have any topics in general or things
00:44:42 --> 00:44:47 that you write about? Mainly about complex PTSD
00:44:47 --> 00:44:53 and about violence, domestic violence. All the
00:44:53 --> 00:44:56 issues that are in the world that people need
00:44:56 --> 00:45:00 to be aware of. Just kind of like that. These
00:45:00 --> 00:45:03 parts of someone's life, your life, things that
00:45:03 --> 00:45:07 you went through as terrible as it is, but it's
00:45:07 --> 00:45:10 always refreshing and it's inspiring to hear
00:45:10 --> 00:45:14 how you were able to turn things around. You
00:45:14 --> 00:45:16 went through the fire. You went through those
00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 dark times. You were alone in the desert, but
00:45:19 --> 00:45:23 you came out. It seems a stronger woman. You
00:45:23 --> 00:45:26 came out with an appreciation for life still.
00:45:26 --> 00:45:29 It didn't completely just suck the zest out of
00:45:29 --> 00:45:34 you. Even later in your years, you still have
00:45:34 --> 00:45:37 something to wake up to and you have a wonderful
00:45:37 --> 00:45:40 husband by your side. So this is all great to
00:45:40 --> 00:45:43 hear that the life that you lived and the work
00:45:43 --> 00:45:47 that you did in the field that you were putting
00:45:47 --> 00:45:51 your blood, sweat and tears in. I mean, that's
00:45:51 --> 00:45:55 a heavy load in dealing and seeing sickness sit
00:45:55 --> 00:45:59 right across from you. and considering everything
00:45:59 --> 00:46:03 that you went through as a child, but to deal
00:46:03 --> 00:46:06 with people that are the perpetrators, someone
00:46:06 --> 00:46:10 who is guilty, is doing some of the same things
00:46:10 --> 00:46:14 that were done to you. I mean, that's hard to
00:46:14 --> 00:46:20 deal with those cases from an unbiased, because
00:46:20 --> 00:46:26 that's hard to not look in and... see some of
00:46:26 --> 00:46:30 these people as the one who wronged you and the
00:46:30 --> 00:46:33 transgressor and not to have some kind of grudge
00:46:33 --> 00:46:36 or bitterness or resentment or hate towards them.
00:46:36 --> 00:46:39 It takes a special kind of someone to be able
00:46:39 --> 00:46:42 to do that. So come a long way, really have.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:45 I want to thank you once again for being vulnerable
00:46:45 --> 00:46:48 and sharing some of your life story in the hopes
00:46:48 --> 00:46:50 that maybe somebody On the other line, they're
00:46:50 --> 00:46:53 listening to it in the sad cases that is so common
00:46:53 --> 00:46:55 that some of these people are going through.
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 But to be that light, to be that hope, to be
00:46:58 --> 00:47:01 that that inspiration that things can can, in
00:47:01 --> 00:47:03 fact, get better and that people can make some
00:47:03 --> 00:47:07 changes and take control of other lives. And,
00:47:07 --> 00:47:10 yeah, it's really great to be able to hear you
00:47:10 --> 00:47:12 talk about that, Patricia. And I want to thank
00:47:12 --> 00:47:14 you again for just coming on and sharing some
00:47:14 --> 00:47:18 of your your life's journey with us. You're welcome.
00:47:18 --> 00:47:25 Thank you for having me. Again, thank you for
00:47:25 --> 00:47:28 inviting us into your home and into your space
00:47:28 --> 00:47:33 and spending some time with us during this conversation
00:47:33 --> 00:47:39 with Patricia. These were difficult, intimate
00:47:39 --> 00:47:44 and traumatic experiences and Patricia, she chose
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48 to open up and talk about them. in order that
00:47:48 --> 00:47:52 she can be some help or of service to anyone
00:47:52 --> 00:47:55 who has faced similar experiences in their own
00:47:55 --> 00:47:59 lives you might even know someone personally
00:47:59 --> 00:48:02 who has been through something similar because
00:48:02 --> 00:48:07 the hard truth is there's so many others living
00:48:07 --> 00:48:11 with similar traumas if Patricia's story resonated
00:48:11 --> 00:48:15 with you if you know someone who might find value
00:48:15 --> 00:48:20 in her words and her experience. We were a nice
00:48:20 --> 00:48:25 normal family. A memoir of recovery from CPTSD
00:48:25 --> 00:48:29 and the trauma of narcissistic abuse is now available
00:48:29 --> 00:48:32 and I've linked it in the show notes. You'll
00:48:32 --> 00:48:36 also find Patricia's website with loads of information,
00:48:36 --> 00:48:39 support and personal insights to help others
00:48:39 --> 00:48:42 with their own journey through trauma and healing.
00:48:42 --> 00:48:44 And some of the things you'll find offered on
00:48:44 --> 00:48:48 Patricia's website is a free trauma self -evaluation
00:48:48 --> 00:48:52 guide, personal reflections and healing tools,
00:48:52 --> 00:48:56 as well as encouragement that meets you right
00:48:56 --> 00:49:01 where you are. Once again, Patricia, thank you
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 so much for your words, for your compassionate
00:49:04 --> 00:49:09 heart and the service you're involved with, with
00:49:09 --> 00:49:13 helping others. Blessings. to you, your husband.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:17 Let's not forget about your service dog and the
00:49:17 --> 00:49:22 great work that you're involved in. You are a
00:49:22 --> 00:49:27 giant amongst us. And of course, a big thank
00:49:27 --> 00:49:29 you to those of you listening, however you're
00:49:29 --> 00:49:32 listening to the show, wherever you're listening
00:49:32 --> 00:49:35 from, let us know how things are going with you.
00:49:36 --> 00:49:39 If you've experienced some certain changes, if
00:49:39 --> 00:49:44 you're appreciating and realizing some new milestones
00:49:44 --> 00:49:47 in your own life doing things that you never
00:49:47 --> 00:49:50 thought you'd be able to do or breaking habits
00:49:50 --> 00:49:55 that you for the longest have been tied and bound
00:49:55 --> 00:50:00 by small wins or big wins these are things to
00:50:00 --> 00:50:04 be celebrated to be acknowledged and used as
00:50:04 --> 00:50:10 fuel to keep us pushing and moving in that better
00:50:10 --> 00:50:15 direction and a little reminder before before
00:50:15 --> 00:50:20 I head out that the hometown and home base is
00:50:20 --> 00:50:26 giantsamongstus .org there you can find all of
00:50:26 --> 00:50:32 the extra thoughts all of the archives the avenues
00:50:32 --> 00:50:36 in which you can get in contact with us and this
00:50:36 --> 00:50:45 that and the other and one more reminder is don't
00:50:45 --> 00:50:51 forget to unplug from the nonsense from the spectacle
00:50:51 --> 00:50:56 and get outside get with nature get your hands
00:50:56 --> 00:51:01 in some soil get your body moving and active
00:51:01 --> 00:51:06 and building and creating and moving or dancing,
00:51:06 --> 00:51:10 singing, playing, doing something that involves
00:51:10 --> 00:51:16 being embracing your humanness and expression
00:51:16 --> 00:51:22 and liberation and complete freedom unapologetically
00:51:22 --> 00:51:27 because this is really what life is about more
00:51:27 --> 00:51:31 than consumption More than materialistic accumulation.
00:51:32 --> 00:51:36 More than stacking and holding and hoarding.
00:51:37 --> 00:51:40 It's about living. It's about being of service.
00:51:40 --> 00:51:44 It's about love. It's about truth. It's about
00:51:44 --> 00:51:49 honesty. It's about creativity. It's about emotional
00:51:49 --> 00:51:54 freedom and embracing the now, the moments, the
00:51:54 --> 00:51:58 experience of it all. the people around you yourself
00:51:58 --> 00:52:04 living and being don't let the show swallow you
00:52:04 --> 00:52:10 whole we are co -creators in this remember that
00:52:10 --> 00:52:16 we are not powerless we are not flawed or incapable
00:52:16 --> 00:52:21 of doing great things there's a giant within
00:52:21 --> 00:52:26 you There's a giant within me. There's a giant
00:52:26 --> 00:52:30 that is within all of us and in bringing it to
00:52:30 --> 00:52:35 a close if You would like to be a part of the
00:52:35 --> 00:52:41 show and share your story or maybe Even the story
00:52:41 --> 00:52:44 of someone in your life that has impacted you
00:52:44 --> 00:52:47 in a positive way You could always reach out
00:52:47 --> 00:52:52 to us via email We'd be happy to connect Until
00:52:52 --> 00:53:21 next time and very soon. Peace. In sin or sin?