Real stories, told by real people.
Happy Holidays, we're back!!! Today, Scott joins us, and he's got a story to tell.
Imagine losing everything and everyone. Family, friends, and all your support, gone. All because a difference in belief. Scott lost his entire family, 17 members on his fathers side, ex-communicated him. In the world of Jehovah's Witness, it's called "shunning" - "children being taken ... grand kids being cut off .... tragic family separations." Scott left the church 15 years ago, and hasn't had contact with his family for 13 of those 15 years.
Leaving the church, and wanting to remove himself from anything to do with it. He eventually moved to Vietnam. And that's where things got interesting - "I would of probably just lived with that traumatic thing inside, and never said anything about it, but something started happening living there." Scott went from trying trying to escape his story to becoming an activist.
Since 2016, he's been part of a project : The Witness Underground documentary, as well as The Witness Underground podcast. I'd like to welcome another GIANT AMONGST US.
'Til next time
and very soon,
PEACE!!
_____
FIND OUT WHAT'S ON DECK, UPCOMING STORIES, AND ANYTHING NEW WITH GIANTS AMONGST US :
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/Giantsamongstus
_____
Scott Homan :
Website : WitnessUnderground.com | BananaIslandFilms.com
Twitter : @WitnessFilms
Instagram : @WitnessUnderground
Youtube : Youtube.com/@WitnessUnderground
Facebook : WitnessUnderground
Support : Patreon.com/WitnessUnderground
-> Also 50% off discount to watch link (RENT (one week watch) or BUY (download))
https://vimeo.com/r/3M2P/VC9vbnNNdm
_____
Connect With Giants Amongst Us :
Website : https://giantsamongstus.org/
Show Updates & Extras : buymeacoffee.com/Giantsamongstus
Share Your Story : giantsamongstus@tutanota.com
YouTube : https://youtube.com/@giantsamongstus?si=LQqRyvae3UozibHy
Reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/Giants_Amongst_Us/
_____
Background music by :
@bnoizemusic
00:00:00
This is Giant Samungsthus.
00:00:21
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show.
00:00:25
This is Giant Samungsthus.
00:00:27
You're going to hear real stories that are told by real people.
00:00:33
People just like yourself.
00:00:35
And if this is your first time tuning in, know that these stories, they come from a place
00:00:40
of struggle, from hurts, abuse, suffering, addictions, the challenges that ones face,
00:00:48
the adversity, the obstacles, all of the suffering, the trials and errors that makes life what
00:00:54
it is.
00:00:55
It's not always up and it's not always down.
00:00:58
It isn't fair, it isn't easy, and whoever said it was supposed to be, they're lying.
00:01:04
But that isn't the end all because these stories also show what it looks like to take responsibility
00:01:12
for one's actions.
00:01:14
It shows how changing attitude, environment, changing and making better decisions can create
00:01:20
better opportunities and a better situation for yourself now and moving forward.
00:01:26
It takes the work and it takes effort and we think you're worth it.
00:01:31
So if you're feeling hopeless right now, if you're feeling helpless, if you're in a dark
00:01:35
spot right now, let these stories remind you that things can in fact get better and you're
00:01:43
not alone and there is hope.
00:01:46
Remember that.
00:01:47
Today Scott joins us and he's got a story to tell.
00:01:51
Scott was raised as a Jehovah's Witness.
00:01:54
He talks about the abuse that went on, physical, sexual, emotional and how that that's pretty
00:02:00
much standard within the organizations.
00:02:03
He even talked about one of the members of the church.
00:02:06
They actually hired a hip man to kill his wife.
00:02:10
He had the fear of Armageddon in the world coming to an end, always playing in the back
00:02:16
of his mind, the psychological trauma that can do to someone, a child especially.
00:02:23
How can you live your life if you're constantly and always afraid and in fear that the world
00:02:29
is going to end?
00:02:30
How was that going to impact your motivation to even want to do anything with your life?
00:02:35
One of the big issues Scott had was the shunning.
00:02:39
Kids not being able to see parents, parents not seeing their grandkids, all because of
00:02:45
the choices that someone makes.
00:02:48
And this affected Scott personally for the decision that he made to finally leave the
00:02:52
church, that costume, the relationship he had with his parents.
00:02:57
That decision he made was 15 years ago.
00:03:00
From those 15 years since he's left the church, 13 of those years, he's been completely shut
00:03:08
off from the rest of his family.
00:03:10
Imagine losing everyone you've ever known by their choice.
00:03:16
Time has moved on and Scott has lived his life.
00:03:20
He's been involved in a lot of projects.
00:03:23
And one project in particular, he just finished.
00:03:26
As a matter of fact, it's available for streaming and you're going to hear him talk about that
00:03:31
in our conversation.
00:03:32
But witness underground, he documented the lives of musicians, of artists that have escaped
00:03:39
the cult.
00:03:40
He's bringing awareness to one of the practices that this organization is notorious for.
00:03:45
One practice that has affected him in a real way and that's shunning.
00:03:50
So you're going to hear Scott share with us how life was for him as a young in coming
00:03:55
up as a Jehovah's Witness.
00:03:57
What led to him finally separating himself from the church, the shunning that happened
00:04:02
because of his decision.
00:04:04
And of course, life after the church.
00:04:09
There's going to be a lot of good nuggets and I'm happy to share this conversation.
00:04:13
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Scott in his story.
00:04:17
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the show.
00:04:21
This is Giants Amongst Us where we share in the unique human experience.
00:04:26
And today we've got a guest with us who took some time out of his day to sit around and
00:04:32
have a conversation and share a little bit about his story.
00:04:35
So Scott, thank you very much for taking time out of your day.
00:04:40
You could have been doing anything, could have been anywhere, but we're going to spend
00:04:43
a little time today and hear some of your experience and your story.
00:04:48
So welcome to the show.
00:04:49
Thanks, Rach.
00:04:50
I really appreciate it.
00:04:51
I'm happy to be here.
00:04:52
I'm excited for the conversation.
00:04:53
Yeah, I know you're a busy man.
00:04:55
You've got a lot of things going on.
00:04:57
And you know, for starters, you don't have to get into specifics, whatever you feel comfortable
00:05:02
with sharing, but you mind talking a little bit about where you come from and how it was
00:05:08
for you growing up?
00:05:09
Yeah, I come from Northern Wisconsin and USA.
00:05:14
And with the international audience, that's in the north at the frontara, the border of
00:05:18
Canada and the center of the state of the Great Lakes.
00:05:21
And my parents, when I was pretty young, got involved with a religious group that are pretty
00:05:28
fundamentalists and extreme in a number of ways.
00:05:31
And they're also very well known.
00:05:32
So we'll get into those details.
00:05:33
Yeah.
00:05:34
We spoke a little bit offline and you said that is it fair to say from a young age or
00:05:39
right out of the womb, this organization and this body, this governing body was a part
00:05:47
of your life or pretty much the overall theme of your belief structure and how your family
00:05:56
raised you?
00:05:57
It's an interesting question.
00:05:58
I think I'm a little bit of an exception to the standard for people that go through this
00:06:02
kind of experience.
00:06:04
My parents joined it when I was about five, between the ages of six and eight.
00:06:10
So I remember this religion is famous for, so you can guess, not celebrating holidays
00:06:16
or birthdays and preaching door to door.
00:06:19
So you might guess which one that is.
00:06:21
And my dad took it kind of seriously, but he was raising a bunch of kids and working
00:06:26
full time and my mom was working full time.
00:06:28
So they were very busy parents and kind of were like the new people in church.
00:06:34
They didn't really have to do all the strict stuff.
00:06:36
And so we were sort of with a lot of leniencies and my mom didn't really love it.
00:06:41
So she would skip church.
00:06:43
And that was like an interesting example to us.
00:06:46
She didn't participate in the preaching.
00:06:47
She didn't participate in the congregation activities.
00:06:51
But my dad tried to, but he wasn't really good at it.
00:06:54
He's very introverted and like he was very busy.
00:06:57
And exhausted probably.
00:06:58
And I think that they, you know, to give them the benefit of the doubt joined it because
00:07:02
they wanted to raise their kids in it what they thought was a safe space.
00:07:05
They liked the carrot on the stick of immortality that the religion promised.
00:07:10
And also they also sent a practical sense like they offered something of a social benefit
00:07:15
to other families with young kids and of drug free environment where, you know, they care
00:07:22
about honesty and truth and value a clean life and a clean body with like complete abstinence
00:07:29
from any kind of substance usage besides alcohol.
00:07:33
Mostly they're alcoholics, but anyway, yeah, so I was raised around it, but sort of like
00:07:39
had a dual perspective like it.
00:07:42
My mom wasn't really good at it.
00:07:43
My dad wasn't that good at it.
00:07:45
My mom didn't really like it.
00:07:47
So we kind of had a balance and we had all of our family that were in the town were
00:07:51
not part of it.
00:07:52
So all of our cousins and the friends we made at school, we weren't, it's not normal to
00:07:57
make friends at school in that religion, but we were allowed to and it was encouraged
00:08:00
actually.
00:08:01
So like I have a, I have a pretty fond positive memory of my weird dual childhood of being
00:08:06
part of being like a cult member in everyone else's eyes while also maintaining friendships
00:08:11
from Wiccans and Catholics and Lutherans and Pentecostals and atheists.
00:08:16
Like I had a little bit of everything in my life and that was nice.
00:08:19
And there's a little variety where most people that go through this have a very strict walled
00:08:23
off life where they only get to interact with people from the same religion.
00:08:26
I had a pretty good balance.
00:08:28
I was under the impression that for the most part they really kept a tight grasp on who
00:08:36
you can and can't associate with just because you know, that can cause maybe doubt, kill
00:08:41
morale or just raise some questions about what it is you're following exactly.
00:08:46
Yeah.
00:08:47
No, you're absolutely right.
00:08:48
That's the standard.
00:08:49
You know, isolationism from the rest of humanity creates an in-group, out-group dynamic that
00:08:55
keeps you in a place where you don't really have any options to talk to someone about
00:08:59
something aside from their leadership or other church members.
00:09:03
And you can't really, you don't really have any place to go to for support if anything
00:09:08
goes wrong in the in-group, in the church group.
00:09:10
And plenty of things go wrong.
00:09:13
My congregation is standard, but we had a guy who hired a hit man to kill his wife,
00:09:18
who went to prison.
00:09:19
We had a pedophile who everyone knew was a pedophile and went to prison for it.
00:09:25
And I dated his daughter with my first girlfriend, but like he went to prison for it, but no
00:09:29
one told my family because we were the new ones with kids and they didn't want to scare
00:09:32
us away.
00:09:33
So they kept it a secret for like 35 years.
00:09:35
Like we were, so like they went through the ringer, you know, like our congregation isn't
00:09:41
exceptional.
00:09:42
Like that was normal stuff that happens at every congregation.
00:09:45
And maybe not the putting a hit man, but like child sex abuse is kind of standard.
00:09:49
Physical abuse of spouses is pretty standard.
00:09:52
When you were a child, did you know people personally?
00:09:57
Like say classmates or not classmates, but I guess you would call, it would probably
00:10:02
be more the peers within your congregation.
00:10:07
Did you hear of or know of people that were going through that type of thing through the
00:10:11
abuse maybe from the elders or from other people's parents?
00:10:15
I learned of it more as a teenager that some women had gone through young, young women
00:10:21
had been abused in some way, but they wanted, they wanted to tell me like they felt safe
00:10:25
to tell me probably because I was sort of like, I don't know, not, and maybe their eyes
00:10:32
like not a full member because I was sort of like always open minded and talked about
00:10:38
my other experience, but they would tell me that they had had some abuse, sexual abuse,
00:10:42
and like, but they didn't want me to tell anyone.
00:10:43
They just wanted to get it off their chest or tell someone, but they, like you can't
00:10:45
really go to a therapist.
00:10:47
You're discouraged from giving the religion a bad name.
00:10:49
So if you were to tell someone like, Oh, an elder raped me or like I was raped by my father
00:10:53
or my uncle or like another congregation member, like that would make the religion look bad.
00:10:58
So like you're told like you don't want to do that because this is God's true people
00:11:01
and you're trying to live forever.
00:11:03
And if you did that, like God will hate you and Jesus will murder you kind of threats.
00:11:07
Is their standard thing.
00:11:09
They don't maybe put it in those terms, but like that's fire and brimstone.
00:11:12
Yeah.
00:11:13
I mean, there are doomsday cults.
00:11:14
So like they're always telling you that it's the end of the world and you better be on
00:11:18
the right side or you're going to get killed by Jesus.
00:11:21
Yeah.
00:11:22
That's what I came to learn just recently.
00:11:25
And because of I mentioned, mentioned to you that from, and I think a lot of people probably
00:11:30
feel the same way that aren't too familiar with the doctrine with, with the Jehovah's
00:11:34
Witness organization, but I mean, I think it's pretty safe to say that this is a cult
00:11:40
that we're talking about here.
00:11:41
That's how I describe it.
00:11:42
Right.
00:11:43
A lot of other people describe it that way.
00:11:45
They don't like that term of course.
00:11:47
It's a, it has a pretty loaded language.
00:11:48
I think they check off a lot of boxes.
00:11:50
They check off a lot of boxes.
00:11:52
One of the ways to determine a high control group that you can also label as a cult is
00:11:59
Stephen Hassan is a cult expert.
00:12:01
He got out of the Mooneys.
00:12:03
He wrote a book that has a concept called the bite model and it's like 20, I don't remember
00:12:10
how many things there are, but like Joseph, this is check almost every single box on the
00:12:12
list apart from having like a single savior.
00:12:16
They used to have a single savior and then it was a series of those people and then eventually
00:12:19
they have now a group that are running it, but they also consider themselves the body
00:12:25
of elders, the governing body that lead the world headquarters in New York, that they
00:12:31
are going to transform into powerful spirit beings and rule over the low class, the earth
00:12:37
class of humans that will, that might survive the end of the world into eternity as like
00:12:42
angels in heaven with God.
00:12:44
So they're basically like the only saviors.
00:12:47
You can only find God through them.
00:12:49
So it's a similar thing, but there's just more of them instead of one.
00:12:53
And then the one thing that really makes it a cult for me and why I made a movie about
00:12:55
it, which I'm sure we'll talk about it.
00:12:58
I made a movie called Witness Underground, but it just, it describes in detail, it demonstrates
00:13:02
shunning, which is the practice of being cut off from family, community, friends, lovers,
00:13:08
even your own spouse and children, and extreme to the end of life.
00:13:11
Like they will never talk to you again out of fear of dying by the hands of Jesus for
00:13:15
talking to you.
00:13:16
We just, we demonstrate that in the movie and this, it's a, there's no dignified way
00:13:20
to leave.
00:13:22
That happens whether you smoke a cigarette one time and you're not sorry about it enough,
00:13:27
or if you just tell people that you've committed a thought crime, if it comes known that you
00:13:32
don't believe something that they, they require you to believe, could be as simple as like,
00:13:37
well, I think there's something to this whole evolution thing.
00:13:41
Like, I think that's how nature works.
00:13:43
That's enough for you to never be able to talk to your family again for the rest of
00:13:46
your life.
00:13:47
Just by saying that you don't believe, believe what they tell you is true.
00:13:52
Like God poofed everything into existence to quote them.
00:13:55
Oh, wow.
00:13:56
That's a new way to look at, look at life and the creation of it.
00:14:02
Because Christianity, well, I remember hearing sometimes that they would call themselves Christians
00:14:08
like back when I was younger and I would run into them, but most Christians believe like
00:14:13
through forgiveness, you can get right with God.
00:14:17
Now, how is it with Jehovah's Witness because you were, you were mentioning if you smoke
00:14:20
a cigarette or anything, you know, the smallest of things, you can put yourself on the outside
00:14:25
now if the world would end, you probably wouldn't make it to where the grass is going to be
00:14:30
greener on the other side, so to speak.
00:14:32
But how was someone able to get right with it?
00:14:36
Are you having to confess your sins like say a Catholic would or do you speak with God
00:14:41
personally?
00:14:42
Is it a relationship in that sense or how does that work out?
00:14:46
I think you made a great point in differentiating different religions.
00:14:49
So Christianity in general, the Protestant religions, non Catholics would generally say
00:14:55
that your forgiveness is based on your relationship with God, grace of God, right?
00:15:00
Your heart.
00:15:01
Yeah, it doesn't have, doesn't require other humans where Catholics, you kind of need this
00:15:06
leader, your local priest or the Pope to say something special to forgive you like that
00:15:12
person has the power in that religion.
00:15:15
And Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar structure.
00:15:17
You have to, your forgiveness is, they'll say both things basically, depends on what
00:15:22
the context is and who they're talking to.
00:15:25
They have three different audiences.
00:15:26
They have members, active members, they have people they want to become new members, regular
00:15:30
humans.
00:15:31
And then they have, it's like they're knocking on the door, they're telling their own people
00:15:35
and then what they say in private meetings with people is like three different groups.
00:15:38
But they'll say that.
00:15:41
The ones in the know.
00:15:42
It's true that you, this is all based on your relationship with God, but they need to demonstrate
00:15:47
it to the elder body that you are your repentant of your sins.
00:15:53
And to do that, they're going to, in some cases they have different levels.
00:15:57
Basically they can say like, well too many people know about this problem.
00:15:59
So we have to get rid of you.
00:16:01
So they'll kick you out of the religion.
00:16:03
But there's a path back, but it's, it's incomplete silence and solitude.
00:16:07
Like no one's allowed to talk to you or even look at you.
00:16:10
No one's allowed to eat with you.
00:16:11
Your own family, we often kick you out of the house.
00:16:13
Often people in that religion.
00:16:14
So you're ostracized.
00:16:15
You're totally ostracized.
00:16:16
With the soonest capable of coming back is attending every single church event, writing
00:16:21
multiple letters to the elders, groveling, basically begging them to let you back in
00:16:25
because you miss your family, but also because you really want to get right with God.
00:16:29
And then they might let you in, but they probably won't.
00:16:32
The minimum is six months, the minimum sentence.
00:16:35
And usually it takes people about a year and or longer.
00:16:39
Some people leave for years and it's like another six months to one year process to start.
00:16:44
You just start again by attending the first time and they mark the calendar.
00:16:48
Okay, they started coming to church at this time, they would remark regular tenants, they
00:16:52
better show up on time and they better write their letters every few months begging.
00:16:57
So that's like one way that they would handle it.
00:17:00
So it's kind of based on them.
00:17:02
If you're, if you're in the good graces of God, on the leaders of your local.
00:17:06
Ultimately, it's not that you have, you know, some, some would say like Jesus came down,
00:17:11
he died for us and through the forgiveness and through you accepting your, your sins
00:17:16
and asking for forgiveness, you're washed in you and you can start, but with the Jehovah's
00:17:21
Witnesses seems like you have to make amends with the governing body.
00:17:26
And that's, that's kind of like the middle, you know, the bridge to get, to get a good
00:17:30
standings with Jehovah once again.
00:17:32
Right.
00:17:33
And that's for like an individual member who's done something wrong or evict, you know, a
00:17:38
sinner who's had a thought crime, they've thought the wrong thing or believed the wrong
00:17:41
thing.
00:17:42
They can get kicked out and be treated this way.
00:17:45
Or if you've, you know, slept with someone, if you had, if you had sexual relationships,
00:17:49
not in a marriage, that would be a huge, that's a huge one.
00:17:51
They're obsessed with sex.
00:17:52
Like, but then if you're talking to on the other side of the coin, the general public,
00:17:58
they tell everyone when they knock on their door, like, Oh yeah, God, we'll forgive you.
00:18:01
Come join us.
00:18:02
We want you to come in and like be a part of God's true people.
00:18:06
And to the point that they go to prisons because there's a lot of people there with no place
00:18:10
to go.
00:18:11
Oh, they have ministry and prisons also.
00:18:13
They go, they go hard on the prisons and letter writing, they go there and talk to them and
00:18:18
they target pedophiles.
00:18:20
And there's a lot of pedophiles coming out of prison and going into Jehovah's Witnesses,
00:18:25
which believe it or not, causes problems.
00:18:27
Oh, wow.
00:18:28
Who would have thought?
00:18:31
No one else has given them a break.
00:18:32
So Jehovah's Witnesses, they should bring them in for some reason, maybe because they
00:18:36
designed a religion that protects them and they want more of them.
00:18:41
I don't know why they would do that, but they made it special.
00:18:43
They make a thing about that.
00:18:45
So through, like coming up and all through school, how was this, was this a big influence
00:18:50
in your life or like you said, you were kind of, you were one foot in, one foot out, not
00:18:55
all the way sold on the belief in doctrines that you had?
00:19:01
It was an interesting world to navigate.
00:19:03
I mean, like on one level, I feel like even though, I mean, I was honest with everybody
00:19:09
as much as I could be with my school friends, with my church community, like, oh, I don't
00:19:14
really know if I believe that.
00:19:15
And then they would try to convince me, but like they always saw me as someone who wasn't
00:19:18
really one of them in the religion.
00:19:20
But then my school friends are like, yeah, Scott's cool, but he won't come to any of
00:19:24
our important parties like holidays or birthdays because that's off limits to that religion.
00:19:31
So I'm like, I can't, I wasn't doing those things.
00:19:33
I wasn't breaking those rules.
00:19:35
And for them, it's like those are important days where all the other friends were there
00:19:37
except for Scott.
00:19:38
Scott's a part of some weird cult that doesn't allow him to do very specific, strange things.
00:19:44
So for them, I wasn't like all, all, I wasn't really one of them in a sense as well.
00:19:48
Like I didn't feel like I fully belonged to the friend groups I was in because I was,
00:19:53
I was different and I was acting different.
00:19:54
They're the point that I mean, even from a very young age, my parents were like, you
00:19:57
can't, you can't say anything good about being a part of USA.
00:20:01
You can't say the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:20:02
You definitely can't sing the national anthem.
00:20:04
So every day in school, every single day through primary school, I had to leave the room and
00:20:10
it was made a big deal out of by every single teacher like, okay, Scott, all religious people,
00:20:15
you know, who can't do this need to leave the room and it'd be just me.
00:20:18
I'll leave the room and like be like self isolating from normal society or like anytime
00:20:24
there's a holiday party, like we're making cupcakes for Easter.
00:20:27
We're going to paint eggs.
00:20:28
Scott, you need to leave the room and like go draw a picture of something else or something
00:20:32
or Christmas songs in the holidays.
00:20:33
Scott, you can't sing and like it would be made a big deal out of and it's like, I don't
00:20:38
want to choose this.
00:20:39
My parents are making me do it, you know, and the teachers aren't being kind about it.
00:20:42
They're just like, get out you weirdo.
00:20:44
You know, like they could, it's a, it's a, and the religion does that.
00:20:48
Like you said at the beginning to ostracize you or like isolate you and make you different
00:20:52
and they, there's this term called the persecution complex.
00:20:55
The religion wants you to think that you're being singled out.
00:20:58
So they force you to single yourself out and that when you go talk to your other church
00:21:03
member community about what happened, something that was difficult for you.
00:21:07
They're like, Oh, it's a great example.
00:21:08
I also did that.
00:21:09
And you're like, now you're like both like, okay, war veterans like say, like, Oh yeah,
00:21:14
we both went through this thing together, but like it's a lot of re that you build.
00:21:18
Yeah.
00:21:19
But it's fully artificial.
00:21:20
But the whole idea is to create something similar.
00:21:22
Like, Oh, we're being oppressed.
00:21:23
Like you're not being oppressed.
00:21:25
You're making a spectacle and you're creating a superiority complex in this child.
00:21:29
But like, Oh, I'm better than you, I won't, I'm not going to do that song.
00:21:33
I'm this, these are pagan holidays.
00:21:35
I'm not a part of that.
00:21:36
My true God won't allow me to be a part of that terrible thing that you guys all do over
00:21:41
there.
00:21:42
You know, like that's a strange way to, to be for like frame everything when you're a
00:21:47
little kid.
00:21:48
That's a great point to have it, to have it to where eventually it's going to look like
00:21:53
you see what I mean there against you.
00:21:55
And we're the ones that understand each other and we're the ones that need each other and
00:22:00
we're the ones that need to build this together because everyone else is against us.
00:22:04
Well, like a victim, a victim hood mentality in a way.
00:22:08
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:09
Out of, I don't know, maybe you could probably pick a one, one of many things, but what was
00:22:13
it about it exactly that was a turnoff or to where you started to kind of see things
00:22:21
from a different lens.
00:22:23
So there's one very specific thing.
00:22:26
I mean, it could be a long story, but I'll just tell the topic.
00:22:29
And it's what my film is about when this underground is about, is about shunning and I mentioned
00:22:33
it already.
00:22:34
But it's one thing for them to talk about it or to hear stories of people like a nearby
00:22:39
congregation or a place far away with people you don't know or have a personal relationship
00:22:43
with.
00:22:44
Like, oh yeah, you can't talk to that person or like they got kicked out.
00:22:47
Like, oh, what did they do?
00:22:48
You know, everyone gossips about it.
00:22:51
And sometimes they announce what the reason was and sometimes they keep it a secret, but
00:22:54
everyone knows because no one can keep it a secret.
00:22:58
And it's a very close society.
00:23:01
So like, they really only know each other and everyone talks about it.
00:23:06
And the issue is shunning.
00:23:07
So like my cousin did something that was against the rules and he got kicked out of the religion.
00:23:15
And it was like, oh, like I grew up.
00:23:17
So I did have family in the religion.
00:23:18
And it was like my mom's cousin's kids also joined the religion.
00:23:23
So I grew up around them.
00:23:26
And yeah, he did something.
00:23:29
So we had to cut him off or like we were told, you're not really supposed to talk to him
00:23:32
anymore.
00:23:33
Well, really?
00:23:34
Like, that's hard because he's at everything.
00:23:36
And did you have a good relationship with them up until then?
00:23:39
Yeah.
00:23:40
Yeah, we were all pretty close.
00:23:41
I mean, they were like another set of brothers was like four of them and three of us guys.
00:23:45
So like we all and there was like one of one, one for each person basically my older brother
00:23:50
had the older cousin, the younger next one was mine.
00:23:52
I'm the second.
00:23:53
And just like that.
00:23:54
There's a couple more younger ones and I believe the brother.
00:23:57
Yeah, just like no more talking to that guy.
00:23:59
But then I saw an example of like he came to visit my dad.
00:24:03
And so my dad talked to him at our house and only him, right?
00:24:09
He was he wanted to talk to my dad about something.
00:24:11
Maybe it was family or business, but my dad's been a good, you know, hour hanging out with
00:24:14
him.
00:24:15
And I was like, that's interesting example.
00:24:17
Here's my dad, the only person in my family who actually understands what's going on in
00:24:20
this religion and takes it seriously.
00:24:21
We're all a bunch of kids, teenagers to have this him giving the example of treating someone
00:24:27
with kindness and breaking the barrier.
00:24:30
I thought that was interesting, but also like I felt terrible about cutting him off.
00:24:34
But having seen that example, I had other friends later on that got cut off that they
00:24:38
were supposed to be, we're supposed to cut them off and I didn't do it.
00:24:41
Like I wouldn't go out of my way to talk to them, but I also, if they called me, I would
00:24:45
answer the phone.
00:24:46
You're not allowed to do that.
00:24:47
You're not supposed to do that.
00:24:49
And they're just like, you know, they're reeling from losing every single person they know
00:24:53
in their life and they believe it.
00:24:55
So it's not like you get kicked out and then you're like, oh, I guess I'm just like not
00:24:59
one of them anymore by and you go make new friends.
00:25:02
Most people that get kicked out are like, I really screwed up big time this this time.
00:25:06
Now I have to like double down.
00:25:08
And so they, they're not just like isolated by the community, they're self isolating too.
00:25:12
They're still not going and making normal friends.
00:25:15
They're trying to get back into the community.
00:25:17
So they're living completely alone and completely in silence without any community or friends
00:25:20
outside.
00:25:21
Wow.
00:25:22
There's like acronyms for physically and mentally and that's an active member.
00:25:25
We call it PIME and PIMO is physically in mentally out.
00:25:29
That's someone who's like woken up while still a member and they're trying to keep their
00:25:32
family together by pretending to be a believer.
00:25:36
And then there's the, the tragic thing I just mentioned, which is like, you're physically
00:25:39
out, but you're mentally in where you like, you're not a part of the community, but you
00:25:43
believe it all still and you, you act accordingly and you're totally controlled and you're self
00:25:48
policing.
00:25:49
Um, well, while out and it could, some people do this for years, decades even where they
00:25:54
still believe it's all true.
00:25:55
It's, they don't develop relationships on the outside and there's like living in isolation
00:26:00
and then like living with guilt and mind, you know, controlled that way emotions.
00:26:05
It's like, it's in a form of emotional abuse.
00:26:07
That's the big thing that really bothered me inside.
00:26:11
And then when I left, I couldn't believe my family would, would do it because they were
00:26:14
such bad members.
00:26:15
Like they just didn't, like bad members is a bit negative, but basically they weren't
00:26:19
good at it.
00:26:20
They weren't taking it seriously.
00:26:21
They skipped church all the time.
00:26:22
They didn't really do the normal stuff on the bottom level.
00:26:25
Like there's a big hierarchy, many, many levels that you can achieve or like try to rise up
00:26:29
in the church and they, none of my family were doing any of that stuff.
00:26:32
So when I finally, it was like, Hey, I don't really believe any of this.
00:26:35
And I think, I think we were all being deceived and like there's some really negative things
00:26:39
going on in this church.
00:26:40
Like they put up with that kind of conversation.
00:26:42
We had real conversations about what's going on in the religion from my perspective as someone
00:26:47
who doesn't believe it for like two years.
00:26:50
So finally when I got out, they, they, I was so, I was actually surprised that they shunned
00:26:55
me, but it came out of nowhere.
00:26:57
Like they all decided together without talking to me that they were going to delete me on
00:27:01
all social media and never respond to me and make a big deal.
00:27:05
If I ever contacted them, that they will never talk to me again.
00:27:08
Are you speaking about now this is your immediate family, your mother, your father?
00:27:13
That's my immediate family.
00:27:14
Yeah.
00:27:15
Whoa.
00:27:16
And so I mean, I left 15 years ago and so there's been about 13 years of a complete shutoff.
00:27:22
Like I haven't talked to the only time I've talked to them has been if I've gone to their
00:27:26
house and confronted them.
00:27:28
But I'm, I mean, I'm not going there.
00:27:29
I'd be like, your religion's wrong.
00:27:31
Like I'm like, Hey, how are you?
00:27:33
It's been a long time.
00:27:34
They're like, I'm not allowed to talk to you because the Bible says you can't have a food
00:27:37
or drink with someone who doesn't believe in God.
00:27:39
And I'm like, wow.
00:27:41
Um, yo, like I just drove 47 hours or like in, I was living, this is my eighth year living
00:27:47
abroad.
00:27:48
So like in some cases I was living in Vietnam and I'm like, you know, I flew across the
00:27:52
entire planet and I drove across a continent to see you.
00:27:57
And you like hang out with me for like at least a few minutes and like say anything about
00:28:01
your life, like what's going on.
00:28:03
That's a strong.
00:28:04
No, no, this is like a, you're, you're like the, the arm of Satan.
00:28:08
You're the anti-Christ.
00:28:09
You're not allowed to be on our property.
00:28:11
Go away.
00:28:12
Like, mom, what are you talking about?
00:28:14
You know, like that's not what's happening.
00:28:18
I didn't come here to talk about your religion.
00:28:20
I came here to say hi to you.
00:28:21
I mean, my dad's the strongest one about it.
00:28:24
And then later on, my like little sisters, like when they got married, they made me
00:28:27
married into it.
00:28:28
So like now they're like super deep in with like guys who are trying to be elders or maybe
00:28:33
they are elders at this point, who knows.
00:28:34
But like, so they're like afraid of losing everything, including their spouse, if they
00:28:39
were to think for themselves.
00:28:40
How old were you exactly when you finally separated yourself completely from the governing
00:28:47
body and all that they stand for?
00:28:51
So there was two things.
00:28:53
I'm 40 is 27 years old, I'm 40, I'm almost 43.
00:28:57
So it's been a while.
00:28:59
And for, but I left it, I left at 18, 19 after reading some literature about shunning.
00:29:05
A bunch of people after having their families torn apart by this religion, like in members,
00:29:10
cutting people off, children being taken, people that are cut off from their own, you
00:29:15
know, parents and they've never seen their grandkids and grandkids being cut off like
00:29:20
almost terrible tragic family separation stories from shunning.
00:29:25
So I kind of, I didn't go to church for like half a year and then my dad kind of like sucked
00:29:29
me back into it in a really like weirdly abusive controlled way.
00:29:33
And I kind of took, I was like, yeah, but I'm not going to do this and this and that
00:29:36
and move my own like vetoed list.
00:29:38
Like this religion is ridiculous on these 17 levels and I don't agree.
00:29:42
And he's like, yeah, then none of that matters.
00:29:43
I'm like, I mean, they say it all matters, but okay, I'm not going to, I'm going to pretend
00:29:48
that it doesn't matter and live like that.
00:29:50
So I went back to it to keep the family stuff and I believed some of it, you know, like I
00:29:54
was like hopeful that I would gain immortality and that I would survive the end of the world.
00:29:59
But I wasn't so sure about the end of the world at that point at 19.
00:30:02
And here we are 2023.
00:30:04
The world's still spinning.
00:30:06
Right.
00:30:07
I mean, by my calculations, when I was living in fear of the end of the world, it should
00:30:12
have been 1996.
00:30:13
They predicted the last time they predicted an actual date was 1975.
00:30:19
They hinted strongly at a date of 2012 because of the Mayan calendar, but there was like
00:30:23
kept harsh harsh.
00:30:24
And there was something else by 2014 that I saw.
00:30:27
And then before when the pandemic started, they all went insane.
00:30:29
I would have thought of 99.
00:30:31
Maybe also Y2K.
00:30:33
Yeah, exactly.
00:30:35
Yeah.
00:30:36
I know you mentioned, you mentioned a bit already about what you're involved with, with
00:30:41
the underground witness.
00:30:43
Talk a little bit about that.
00:30:44
I know you're doing a documentary or you've already done a documentary, but also the work
00:30:51
that you've been involved with since you left the organization, can you mind sharing
00:30:57
some of that?
00:30:58
Yeah.
00:30:59
So I did like a, I called the Degobah experience, the Degobah period of time where I got out
00:31:03
of the religion.
00:31:04
I was like, I'm not talking to anyone about that past.
00:31:05
I want to not, I want to not be a cult member.
00:31:07
And I also want to not be a former cult member because I'm sick of being treated as a different
00:31:12
kind of human being.
00:31:13
I've been treated differently by my community.
00:31:15
So I went through this period of like, I'm not telling anybody.
00:31:18
And then I moved to Vietnam, like the farthest place away from society.
00:31:22
And I didn't have community or family.
00:31:24
So I was like, well, what am I doing here hoping that a relationship will exist someday?
00:31:28
I could be anywhere.
00:31:29
My eyes will go to the farthest place on the planet away from all of this insanity.
00:31:32
And I moved to a communist country that's atheist essentially.
00:31:36
And I was like, why does communism feel so good?
00:31:38
Oh, because I grew up in a community that has run like communists, everyone's watching,
00:31:45
everyone's trying to turn you in very Orwellian.
00:31:46
The end of the world is coming.
00:31:48
There's always threats and dangers.
00:31:50
Not maybe not like Marxism, but like actual communism that we've experienced for a century.
00:31:55
So it was, I was like, it feels really comfortable.
00:31:58
This is like what everything that Jill has been, she's ever talked about, like I'm living
00:32:01
it here is cool.
00:32:02
I like it.
00:32:03
And there's some good things.
00:32:04
I mean, I lived with a lot of privilege over there as well because I had access to money
00:32:08
and money was a long way there.
00:32:10
And I had a huge international community there.
00:32:12
So I was really enjoying that.
00:32:14
My Degobah period.
00:32:15
Yeah.
00:32:16
And then after being out for about five years, I dove back into filmmaking when I was living
00:32:19
over there and I spent five years in Vietnam and I was really dedicated to documentary
00:32:23
and music work that I was doing there, filming and making music videos and doing documentaries
00:32:29
on things that I thought, well, things I could get paid for, but also things that were important.
00:32:32
I love documentary my whole life.
00:32:34
Okay.
00:32:35
And I think I think I'm gaining the skills that someday soon I'll be able to tell this
00:32:39
crazy story I went through.
00:32:40
I have no idea how I'll do that.
00:32:41
I've never done a big project that exposes something or a story, big deep story, but
00:32:46
I think I could do it.
00:32:47
Exposing.
00:32:48
Yeah.
00:32:49
Cause I've got the skills for audio.
00:32:50
I've got the skills for camera, my back.
00:32:51
I went to school for photography while I was a witness.
00:32:53
So I have like the camera visual skills.
00:32:55
Okay.
00:32:56
And I was learning storytelling skills when I was there and how powerful music is in storytelling
00:33:01
to capture an emotion.
00:33:03
And so I was like, I think I can, I think I should do a documentary.
00:33:06
That's just fun.
00:33:08
And then I want to tell something deeper.
00:33:09
So I started doing interviews with people I was meeting.
00:33:12
What was crazy to me is I kind of wanted to escape this story though.
00:33:14
So I called the Degobah period and Degobah, if I didn't mention this, but that's where
00:33:18
Yoda went when the Jedis were being hunted.
00:33:20
He went to the swamp planet.
00:33:21
Okay.
00:33:22
So Luke Skywalker finds him there and, and he gets trained by Yoda and the swamp planet.
00:33:28
So I call Vietnam my Degobah period.
00:33:32
I went there and went, I got to train to be like a activist.
00:33:36
You pretty much went alone, right?
00:33:38
You just took a shot and went overseas and now with a friend, not with a soul, but yourself.
00:33:43
Exactly.
00:33:44
I mean, I kind of had an in with someone to teach English, which is something I've always
00:33:49
wanted to do.
00:33:50
It's just like, just as an excuse to give it, give the life experience of doing it, live
00:33:53
abroad and have a job.
00:33:55
But yeah, I went, I went alone and I made a life there and it was awesome.
00:33:58
I loved it.
00:33:59
I have a lot of friends there still.
00:34:01
Wow.
00:34:02
Yeah.
00:34:03
That's, that's cool.
00:34:04
So after you're not wanting anything to do with it, not wanting to talk about it, there,
00:34:09
there was a time where you figured that maybe I can start putting this crazy story together
00:34:14
and shedding some light on it.
00:34:17
I probably would have like just lived with that traumatic thing in my inside and never
00:34:21
said anything about it.
00:34:23
But something started happening living there.
00:34:25
I dated a woman who we never talked about that topic.
00:34:30
And then like after a year after we broke up, she got in touch with me and she's like,
00:34:33
Hey, something happened.
00:34:34
Like my mom died and I want to talk to you about it.
00:34:35
And I was like, Oh, what happened?
00:34:36
She's like, Oh, just, it's just like a really hard thing.
00:34:38
And I think you'd understand maybe the only one and I don't know why, but I want to talk
00:34:41
to you.
00:34:42
She's like, so I grew up in this weird religion.
00:34:43
And I was like, really?
00:34:45
We never talked about that.
00:34:46
Which one?
00:34:47
She's like, Joe has witnesses.
00:34:48
And I was like, you're joking.
00:34:49
Me too.
00:34:50
She's like, fuck you.
00:34:51
That's crazy.
00:34:52
What?
00:34:53
How is, how did we never talk about that?
00:34:54
And I was like that.
00:34:55
Okay.
00:34:56
So I went to the hospital, ketchup and it was awesome and you know, she's doing great, she's
00:35:02
now married and they seem really happy.
00:35:03
But then like, what are the chances of that?
00:35:04
And at that time I was living with a bunch of people cause it's like a lot of co-living
00:35:06
spaces, like for people in a big house, everyone has their own room.
00:35:09
That's kind of the standard thing for an international community there.
00:35:12
Of course you can rent your own space, but just, it's a cheap, low cost thing.
00:35:16
And I was, I love living in community and I'd live at that point, like a hundred people
00:35:20
in terms of like roommates throughout my life.
00:35:23
And so I was loving it.
00:35:24
And I still love that kind of thing, but I was living with this woman in the house and
00:35:28
she hurt herself on a motorcycle accident.
00:35:30
So she was like living in the living room cause there was stairs and she didn't want
00:35:32
to go to the plants, we were like hanging out a lot, a lot more than we had been.
00:35:36
And then after like two months of this, like every day, like watching a movie and like
00:35:40
chatting and whatever, having a drink, sitting, she's like sitting with her hurt leg.
00:35:44
She's told me that her like, her sister's coming to town and she had this like whole
00:35:48
issue and she was worried about like, she had a conversation with her mom and it was
00:35:51
this whole thing from London.
00:35:52
And I was like, what's going on?
00:35:53
Oh, you have my mom's in this weird religion.
00:35:55
And I was like, what's going on?
00:35:56
What religion?
00:35:57
She said, Jehovah's Witnesses.
00:35:58
I was like, how is this happening?
00:35:59
How are like everyone, there's someone in my life at all times who's an ex Jehovah's
00:36:03
Witness, but I also like really deeply respected them.
00:36:06
And I was like, what's the deal with ex witnesses and living really interesting lives and doing
00:36:12
really, really cool things with their lives?
00:36:14
Like on the police, how, from my perspective, like similar things to me where I was like
00:36:18
living it.
00:36:19
I was like doing everything I loved.
00:36:21
I was like exploring documentary and film and music and I made it, I made a music documentary
00:36:24
when I was there and I was working on tons of music videos and having the time of my
00:36:28
life in a lifestyle that I really, I chose and I really enjoyed.
00:36:31
And I kept meeting people that had the same background as me who are also doing stuff
00:36:34
like that.
00:36:35
And I was like, okay, I think I'm going to need to lean into this because I kind of want
00:36:39
to tell this crazy story about shunning and expose this religion for the evils of shunning
00:36:43
and the emotional abuse that they have of all the different problems.
00:36:47
That was the one that affected me.
00:36:48
We already talked about child sex abuse.
00:36:50
There's other major issues that are things that should be illegal or are illegal in many
00:36:54
countries going on in that religion.
00:36:57
But this one affected me in a deep way.
00:36:58
Like I haven't talked to my family and siblings for years, including my grandparents and there's
00:37:02
an FU and I want to, you know, all this disconnection that's so unhealthy and broken family, which
00:37:09
we had a very healthy relationship up until that moment.
00:37:12
And like, I love my family.
00:37:13
So I was really missing it and wanting to talk about how dangerous and this religion is for
00:37:18
creating that situation and perpetuating it on purpose.
00:37:21
Like they force them to do this.
00:37:23
I almost, I like, I see my family as like victims more than me.
00:37:28
Like we're all victims of this thing, but like they have to choose to do that every
00:37:31
single day and live with the cognitive dissonance every day of cutting someone off and lying
00:37:36
to themselves.
00:37:37
Like there's a lot I can say, but there's like character assassination.
00:37:40
They're telling, they tell crazy lies about me to people, to themselves, to each other
00:37:45
about me.
00:37:46
And it comes to me through other people and I'm like, I can't believe they would say
00:37:49
that.
00:37:50
Like none of that's even, that's the exact opposite of reality.
00:37:52
Why would they bring that?
00:37:53
I wonder if it's like a way to almost, you know, it almost makes it a little easier to
00:38:00
accept the fact that you've separated yourself from your own blood or your own side.
00:38:05
Exactly.
00:38:06
Yeah.
00:38:07
You nailed it perfectly.
00:38:08
So yeah, I don't know.
00:38:09
I don't know.
00:38:10
I don't know if I forgot what your original question was, but.
00:38:13
It was having to do with.
00:38:15
Yeah, so you, you, you came to a point with not wanting to speak anything of the religion
00:38:20
to where you started to lean into putting everything together.
00:38:23
Yeah.
00:38:24
So we kind of shed some light on what's going on and more specifically the shunning.
00:38:28
That's right.
00:38:29
And it came from meeting people out in the world out doing what they love and randomly
00:38:36
being friends with them when they were in the same.
00:38:39
Live in their life.
00:38:40
Like not talking about that past because it's not, it's not something they want to talk
00:38:43
about or be associated with, they want to distance themselves from it.
00:38:45
And I was like, yeah, me too.
00:38:47
But like that's a crazy thing to have in common.
00:38:49
No one knows what that's like.
00:38:50
Wow.
00:38:51
The camaraderie that you have right there from that.
00:38:54
And I was like, do you want to do an interview?
00:38:56
And they were like, hell, yeah, why not?
00:38:59
Let's do it.
00:39:00
And I started having these incredible interviews, but I didn't really know how to tell the story
00:39:04
and everyone's story is so different and everyone's story.
00:39:06
I mean, this is also an international thing, right?
00:39:08
So many, many cultures represented hundreds of different like countries and cultures.
00:39:13
And everyone has a completely different experience and a different problem, a different way that
00:39:18
their family's handling it and a different way that their congregation's handling it.
00:39:21
So like, where do you start?
00:39:23
Do you start with like, well, I was born in it or like, there was a child sex abuse problem
00:39:27
or there was, you know, someone in my family died and this is what happened or like, do
00:39:32
you go to the, like when you're trying to do an interview or like make a movie, like
00:39:35
is it the moment that you leave?
00:39:37
Like what was that moment?
00:39:38
Is it what is it?
00:39:39
The waking up moment?
00:39:40
What was the final straw that broke the camel's back moment for you?
00:39:44
Or is it the stuff that happens after?
00:39:46
And I was far more interested in like, I was fascinated by people who've left and what
00:39:50
they did with their life afterwards.
00:39:51
So that's my whole project is called XJW coming out on YouTube.
00:39:54
Okay.
00:39:55
So really dive into the what happens after, but on, on, and one level it's sort of like,
00:40:00
yeah, and then I left religion and then I became a carpenter.
00:40:04
And so it's like, okay, well, let's show carpentry then.
00:40:06
And we were telling your story of this like crazy thing that we have in common.
00:40:09
We're showing people doing carpentry with isn't that exciting.
00:40:12
You know, I, I'm a, I'm a fan.
00:40:14
Sure.
00:40:15
Like why not?
00:40:16
It can create something visual, but it's not like, whoa, this person did something incredible
00:40:18
with their lives.
00:40:19
They did something very, very normal and actually practical and very useful with their lives.
00:40:24
For me, that's interesting, but I don't know that that really captivates like the average
00:40:27
human being.
00:40:28
Like I'm going to watch a guy do in carpentry.
00:40:29
Really tells me a story isn't.
00:40:32
So maybe it didn't like work for some stories, but other stories, but I mean, I just wanted
00:40:36
to tell reality, right?
00:40:37
Like it's documentary.
00:40:38
So I don't have no idea.
00:40:39
Exactly.
00:40:40
Right.
00:40:41
Everybody's path is different.
00:40:42
Not everyone is going to be a, not everyone is a rock star.
00:40:45
There's some people, they, they find their peace, their love and their joy in, in building
00:40:50
or laying a foundation to some kind of groundwork or whatever.
00:40:53
So, but I love that you just brought up rock stars because that's what my movie's about.
00:40:57
So what I did find, and this is the exciting thing is that our film follows five people
00:41:03
that were in a community of like three to 500 kids over a period of 20 years inside the
00:41:08
religion who are making art and music.
00:41:10
And so it's like, you get an insider's view of the religion through the eyes of artists,
00:41:14
through their archival movies, archival music videos and archival albums.
00:41:18
They have like 30 produced albums that they released in their religion.
00:41:21
Oh, wow.
00:41:22
So that's like the, okay, what is this religion from the inside, from the eyes and ears of
00:41:27
filmmakers and musicians in the religion, which is very unprecedented.
00:41:30
That's not like a normal thing.
00:41:31
It did happen in a number of countries, but not everywhere.
00:41:35
Are they based everywhere or specifically in the US?
00:41:38
This was one specific city and like it expanded to multiple states around in my home area.
00:41:43
And so I actually knew these people when I was in the religion, because I had my own
00:41:47
band in my high school, like my normal friends.
00:41:50
And I was like, oh, there's other witnesses who are doing cool music.
00:41:54
Like I didn't know that there was cool witnesses.
00:41:56
I thought they're all just boring Jesus people who do weird things.
00:42:00
Like, like my parents are trying to be a part of this thing and I'm trying to like navigate
00:42:04
it because I don't know, like my parents joined it, not me.
00:42:07
I'm just like, this is my weekly reality that I kind of am coerced to do all this stuff
00:42:10
I don't want to do, whether I believe it or not.
00:42:12
What do you think about like, say for instance, people that are involved in the, let's just
00:42:18
cut, I mean, I'm going to write that also because I do think they check a lot of boxes,
00:42:23
but this coat, people that are involved in it to this day and involved with it when you
00:42:28
were still part of that governing body and attending, you know, the kingdom halls and
00:42:33
things like that.
00:42:34
So do you think that sucks the creativity?
00:42:37
Like there's no room to be creative.
00:42:39
There's no, there's no motivation to be creative and express yourself.
00:42:43
How does, how do you feel about that?
00:42:46
Because I know you're talking about the life afterwards, but like say for instance, while
00:42:50
you're involved with it, does, is there any room for creativity or that's not a thing.
00:42:56
It's a great question.
00:42:57
And it's something that kind of shocks people that first of all, that it would be squashed,
00:43:02
but it's accepted if you're doing it on your own in that religion.
00:43:05
And I'm sure that that would be probably true for most groups because like, what can they
00:43:09
control about what you do in your, you know, alone in your bedroom?
00:43:12
But they sort of do time management.
00:43:14
So like, well, you should be spending your time going door to door preaching or like
00:43:18
studying more of the religion, reading more of their literature.
00:43:20
Like you're inundated with stuff to read and study and prepare for and they give you, yeah,
00:43:26
they don't want you thinking about other stuff.
00:43:28
They want you thinking only about their thing.
00:43:30
And so on that level, they don't really want, there's no, they don't, they definitely don't
00:43:34
want you to pursue a career in art.
00:43:37
And if you think about comparing it to like any other authoritarian regime, the arts, the
00:43:42
first thing to go and the government owns the propaganda and the control, the narrative.
00:43:48
Yeah.
00:43:49
So like for a good example of a fiction, I would be V for Vendetta, the graphic novel
00:43:54
and the movie.
00:43:55
The main character has like a deposit, a repository, like a secret layer of art that
00:43:59
he's collected because art has been destroyed or captured by the government.
00:44:03
And then they put, you know, screens everywhere and they try to control the way you think
00:44:08
and what you think about.
00:44:09
And a lot of dystopian films and books do that.
00:44:13
And that's because we have examples of that happening in reality.
00:44:16
Even like in North Korea, the son of the leader, like 40 years ago, he became like the department
00:44:23
of film and media head.
00:44:26
And then they made a bunch of films that were like the laughing stock of the planet.
00:44:30
So like just pure propaganda with bad acting and bad writing.
00:44:34
But then like he hired, they kidnapped a director from South Korea and then they kidnapped
00:44:39
two star actors and they kept them in prison for like 10 years, five, 10 years or something.
00:44:44
And then they finally broke them mentally and they got them to act and write.
00:44:48
And then they started making films that were like high quality, that are like getting recognized
00:44:52
on the international scene.
00:44:53
This is what authoritarian regimes do, like they don't want you making your own stuff.
00:44:56
They are the ones that are making the songs.
00:44:58
They are the one that are making the videos.
00:45:00
Now this religion, Jefferson, this is like in the nine, sort of the last century, they
00:45:04
were railing against TV evangelists, televangelists.
00:45:06
Exactly.
00:45:07
It's like a terrible thing for society and like how awful they are.
00:45:11
And now they are that they have nine leaders and they all have TV show.
00:45:16
And they look, they portray themselves as like, I don't even know what to call it.
00:45:20
Like they're really, really boring, but they portray themselves as like God's true people
00:45:25
and they're like the only ministers that have a voice.
00:45:27
And they actually, when you're, Josephus, this is last century, there's a school to
00:45:31
like learn how to become a good public speaker.
00:45:33
And now they canceled it a couple of years ago and they don't even have like public
00:45:37
sermons anymore by local minister.
00:45:38
They like have a TV and you like watch the TV of the leaders giving a public sermon.
00:45:43
Like what's, what is that?
00:45:45
Now you're like a weird TV televangelist cult and they have like a, they were like
00:45:50
for over the pandemic, they were like a zoom cult.
00:45:52
Like you had to dress up to go to your zoom meeting and you had to have your camera on
00:45:57
or else.
00:45:58
Like I heard so many funny stories about how they were trying to keep control of people
00:46:02
during that time.
00:46:09
But you were able to, cause you, you mentioned that you took up photography while you were
00:46:14
still considered a Jehovah's Witness.
00:46:16
Well, actually my grandmother who like, it's my grandparents who joined the religion and
00:46:20
they convinced my dad to take it seriously and like check it out and start studying with
00:46:23
them for years.
00:46:24
My dad would, the only one doing that.
00:46:27
They brought us all in, but my grandma gave me my first Kodak 110 with a plastic camera.
00:46:31
It was like a 12 year old, like a birthday, almost like a birthday gift, but it wasn't
00:46:34
a birthday.
00:46:35
And then my mom was really big into shooting all the time, just family photos basically,
00:46:40
but she had a nice camera.
00:46:41
And then I had access to that stuff and like an example.
00:46:44
And my mom was, you know, not really in, in.
00:46:48
So she was like, if you're going to go to college, which witnesses aren't really allowed
00:46:52
to, if you're going to go to college, you better be for art.
00:46:53
You better not go for something boring like business.
00:46:55
And I was like, mom, I want to be an entrepreneur.
00:46:57
She's like, you go to school for art or you're not going to school.
00:47:01
Okay.
00:47:02
So I had that in mind, but I also really love the arts.
00:47:06
Yeah.
00:47:07
Yeah.
00:47:08
I always love photography.
00:47:09
I had a nice AE one with a bunch of lenses.
00:47:10
I was always shooting portraits for my friends and stuff through high school.
00:47:14
I was like, there's all these high school photos.
00:47:15
And I like, I have like an, a legit film camera on my neck.
00:47:18
And back then that was the only way to take a photo is with like a nice camera or like
00:47:24
a, you know, throw away point and shoot.
00:47:25
But like, if you want to take a nice photo, you kind of need to have a nice camera.
00:47:28
And so like, I was this guy with this huge, like four pound camera on my neck all the
00:47:31
time.
00:47:32
And I loved it.
00:47:33
You go to man.
00:47:34
Now it's a bit weird cause like I went to school for it.
00:47:36
And the year I got out of college for photography, everyone had a smart camera, a smart phone.
00:47:41
And I was like, no.
00:47:43
You know, everyone can do the magic that I just learned how to do.
00:47:45
I spent like years of my life learning how to do the magical thing of photography.
00:47:50
Maybe you have still the composition.
00:47:53
There's still a composition in the craft to exclude and include what you want in the
00:47:58
frame to make it, to portray what you wanted to portray.
00:48:02
Yeah.
00:48:03
Absolutely.
00:48:04
No, you're absolutely right.
00:48:05
And there's still professional photographers out there.
00:48:07
Like they do a valuable, valuable work.
00:48:09
Yeah.
00:48:10
That's true.
00:48:11
And your work received from people, did you get any pushback?
00:48:18
Once you started to, you know, kind of link up with people who were once involved, but
00:48:23
not involved anymore.
00:48:24
And they started to speak and share their story.
00:48:27
Did you get any pushback or how was it received overall?
00:48:32
My XJW coming out series or the documentary or both?
00:48:35
Yes.
00:48:36
So the documentary is still kind of in its earlier release phase.
00:48:40
We just secured some money from a Kickstarter to release on streaming services, which is
00:48:44
pretty cool, but it's been kind of done for about two and a half years.
00:48:48
So it's like, how do you do distribution?
00:48:50
But so, you know, a few thousand people have seen the movie.
00:48:52
I've gotten a lot of writing reviews and like little like, hey, I watched your film.
00:48:57
This is how I felt about it type messages.
00:49:01
And most of them are like, whoa, like this is not only the great documentary.
00:49:06
It's like, this is my favorite documentary I've ever seen in my life.
00:49:09
Like I've never seen myself on camera before.
00:49:11
I've never seen my story on TV before.
00:49:13
Like this feels incredible.
00:49:15
Like I just watched it three times and I cried at a different scene every time.
00:49:18
Like, okay, so I mean something that triggers people, but I also make some feel seen, which
00:49:22
is special.
00:49:24
So most of it's been that, which has been amazing, very, very validating that I told
00:49:28
a story that people are excited to see on camera.
00:49:31
And it's very, very real and relatable to people who went through this experience, but
00:49:34
I've also gotten lots of feedback from people who have no connection at all to this religion.
00:49:39
And really, when you make a documentary, like I'm going to watch a documentary about like
00:49:42
a beetle in Africa.
00:49:45
And I have no connection to Beatles in Africa or Africa.
00:49:48
You know, like people watch documentaries to learn something new and be exposed to a
00:49:50
new idea or something they don't know about or something strange.
00:49:53
So I think I also, we also did that successfully to attract people who have no connection to
00:50:00
this because I've been told by people from Europe that have no connection to this.
00:50:05
Like, oh yeah, like they had some similar experience when they were a kid that had nothing
00:50:09
to do with this religion, but something else.
00:50:11
Or someone from the Philippines who like grew up in America, and he felt similar like relating
00:50:16
to the idea of having two different communities, the American standard community or whatever
00:50:22
that is.
00:50:23
And then the Filipino community that he grew up in as like a subculture or a co-culture
00:50:27
in the States, having a dual reality.
00:50:30
It's like, that was the thing that he got from the movie.
00:50:32
Like, oh, wow, I didn't, I didn't really think of that connection.
00:50:35
Or someone who's a Catholic, they're like, oh my God, this is exactly how I felt.
00:50:39
Like really Catholics like the biggest Christian religion on the planet.
00:50:42
And you felt similarly to these like small fledgling cult group.
00:50:46
Like, yeah, because of the worldview, like the religious landscape of like, what is the
00:50:51
supernatural world like and how, how real or not real that is when you're in it.
00:50:56
It's like, there are angels and demons and hellfire and heaven.
00:51:00
And that is affecting your day all the time, just like the people in the movie.
00:51:03
And it's like, oh, we didn't talk about any of those topics really.
00:51:06
We talked about the doomsday end of the world and shunning.
00:51:09
And they're like, yeah, it's the same.
00:51:11
And I'm like, wow, okay.
00:51:13
So people from all different walks of life are totally resonating with this something
00:51:17
universally human is happening that we captured in this movie.
00:51:21
So that's been like really interesting to watch and like makes you feel like the choices
00:51:25
we made and who we brought into the film team.
00:51:28
Like the producer on the movie that helped me shoot it and write a lot of it and did
00:51:31
a lot of the question writing and asking.
00:51:33
He's not at all.
00:51:34
He grew up atheist.
00:51:35
Oh, wow.
00:51:36
So he wanted to ask very specific questions that are like from his perspective and the
00:51:39
editor has, she's British and knows nothing about this religion.
00:51:43
She's a novel writer.
00:51:45
And so she did the story editing.
00:51:46
So she and her husband did a lot of work to like curate the flow of the story and pulling
00:51:51
those questions.
00:51:52
Like most people, like it's actually, and I'm, and I'm like, for most people, sort of
00:51:56
effective, not a real witness, right?
00:51:58
Technically I'm not, I mean, technically whatever, I'm not in the religion.
00:52:02
I don't believe any of it, but technically by their perspective, I'm still an active,
00:52:06
I'm an inactive member to be really technical about it.
00:52:09
But like, they have three people that have like different, they're not, none of us are
00:52:14
true members, but like, or had no connection.
00:52:17
But we told the story that about them, that is first of all, very honest, incredibly compelling
00:52:23
from a music and emotional perspective and has a universal appeal to humanity from all
00:52:29
walks of life.
00:52:30
Even though it's a bunch of white folks in Minnesota, making Indy rock, you know.
00:52:36
Yeah.
00:52:37
I mean, even the shunning, even the shunning alone, that's something that's going to be
00:52:41
relatable because we all have family, we have loved ones, we have people that we're close
00:52:46
to and to have the idea or the thought play out to where just imagine yourself now being
00:52:53
totally exed from communication.
00:52:56
You're just as if you didn't exist anymore.
00:52:59
I mean, that's going to hit a personal spot, I think for, like you said, there's something
00:53:04
universal about it.
00:53:05
And I think right there, that's a big component.
00:53:07
Yeah.
00:53:08
I'm really excited too, because it's like, I'd made a film in Vietnam about music, but
00:53:12
it was very like lights.
00:53:13
Like here's some musicians making music and here's some people that run the venue.
00:53:17
It was very light, but like in fun to watch, like have a drink, smoke a joint or whatever
00:53:22
and watch it.
00:53:23
But like, but this is like, this is a bit heavier, way heavier, way more personal.
00:53:28
And but it still has a music component.
00:53:30
And it's like, we take the soundtrack is two and a half hours long.
00:53:34
The film's 80 minutes.
00:53:36
And the official CD soundtrack is 80 minutes.
00:53:38
But like, there's a lot of music and a lot of musical journey and we take you through
00:53:42
a over a period of 20, it's like 27 years throughout the documentary from like their
00:53:47
youth in the religion as musicians, the concerts that they threw the, the Jehovah's Witness
00:53:53
like community music festival.
00:53:56
And they had, that was a pulling people from multiple states, that was a connection to
00:53:59
Chicago, like half the people in the movie married people from the Chicago Jehovah's
00:54:03
Witness music scene.
00:54:04
And then like the shunning and demonstrating that.
00:54:07
And then one thing I've never seen in a movie before on the topic, there are movies on this
00:54:11
topic, there are documentaries that talk about shunning, but they often focus on the religion
00:54:16
and they focus on the trauma.
00:54:18
But then that's it.
00:54:19
Like there's not like a resolution.
00:54:22
And it's hard to hit all the, hit all the notes, but I want to hit new notes.
00:54:26
And the new thing I want to hit was like, well, what happened to these people after all of
00:54:30
that?
00:54:31
And there's this sort of like, it gets better.
00:54:32
Like, oh, there's also another huge problem we haven't talked about at all, which is in
00:54:36
Jehovah's Witness suicides and ex-Jovas Witness suicides because of the turmoil of this.
00:54:41
I could only imagine.
00:54:42
I mean, especially if you're talking about a doomsday to where you're feeling like I'm
00:54:46
not good enough anyways, what's the next solution or what your, it's a catch 22.
00:54:52
Yeah.
00:54:53
I have a, one of my early interviews was with this ballet dancer, ballet instructor Miranda
00:54:57
Nunez.
00:54:58
She talks about how her mom, when she, when she left like decided she didn't realize she
00:55:04
didn't believe it and told her mom, I don't believe all of this.
00:55:06
I think it's wrong.
00:55:07
And I think there's a lot of lies here.
00:55:10
The mom was like, why don't you just go kill yourself then you'd be better off.
00:55:14
No way.
00:55:15
The mom to her daughter, that's like day one.
00:55:17
Like you should just go kill yourself because God's going to do it anyways.
00:55:19
And at least if you do it yourself, there might be a chance you'll get resurrected into
00:55:22
the paradise.
00:55:23
It's like, yo, to your own child.
00:55:27
It's so dark.
00:55:28
So that, that's what they, and how many have took in that and actually, you know, they
00:55:32
played that out in real life.
00:55:34
Exactly.
00:55:35
They encourage it.
00:55:36
This religion encourages people to kill themselves because I mean, they don't actively as a religion,
00:55:41
but like this happens so often.
00:55:43
Um, individually, like, okay, there's, I'm afraid to put my own family member since day
00:55:48
one of relieving.
00:55:49
I'm afraid to put them down as an emergency contact because they have rules, um, within
00:55:54
their religion that if I were to be in a serious accident and I needed specific medical care
00:55:59
that the religion bans, they would not let me get the medical care.
00:56:02
They'd rather see me die.
00:56:03
And they'd probably rather see me die in general because for them, the selfishly get to see
00:56:07
me in the paradise because if I die, there's a chance God will resurrect me.
00:56:12
But if Jesus kills me during the genocide, there's, that's it.
00:56:16
Like if God or his people, his angels or Jesus kills you, like you'll never be brought back.
00:56:23
So they actually, if they're really taking their religion seriously and believing it
00:56:26
all, that's one of their beliefs that like if you die now, it's better.
00:56:31
So die sooner than them.
00:56:32
They want to know that you die.
00:56:34
They want to experience your death before God does it.
00:56:37
Wow.
00:56:38
Anyway, so that's insane.
00:56:40
Yeah.
00:56:41
That, yeah.
00:56:42
And these, these type of things right here to hear it and I'm sure other people that,
00:56:47
like I said, they're maybe being introduced to this for the very first time, that is some
00:56:52
shocking.
00:56:53
That's like a, that's a shaker right there.
00:56:55
I mean, to have that and it's, it's natural, not natural, but it's, it's normalized in
00:57:01
this cult.
00:57:02
That's crazy.
00:57:03
So we wanted to put like a, because it's so heavy.
00:57:06
We wanted to put a big breath of fresh air at the end of the movie.
00:57:09
It's like, what had happened to these five people that we just got to know in such a
00:57:12
deep way over such a long period of time after all of that mess?
00:57:18
And we show that in the last, you know, last chapter of the film as a sort of like, we
00:57:23
get to know what happened, what their lives are like.
00:57:26
We see them kind of rising as musicians.
00:57:28
Like once they get out, they made like twice as much music and the quality of music was
00:57:32
based on that, you know, they had their 10 hours in to use a milk and glad well ism.
00:57:37
And we're in the flow.
00:57:38
Yeah.
00:57:39
And then they had something to say and they know filter anymore.
00:57:40
They didn't have to code their language anymore.
00:57:42
They didn't have to tiptoe around what people would think or say about their music.
00:57:45
They're like, Hey, we can say anything.
00:57:47
This situation is fucked.
00:57:49
Like we're going to sing about it.
00:57:51
And we've, and they're creating their own beliefs and like exploring new belief systems
00:57:55
and new ideas and talking and singing about that.
00:57:57
And like they all put so many albums, we call them like exit trilogies.
00:58:00
Like there's the one you, the album you make just before you leave, the album that you
00:58:04
make right after getting cut off from everyone you know, and the album you make as you sort
00:58:08
of like land on the outside.
00:58:09
And so the film sort of like at the last chapter is like, Whoa, what did they do with music?
00:58:15
After they left?
00:58:16
Whoa.
00:58:17
They like, they rise as rock stars.
00:58:18
And so you mentioned that before, not everyone's a rock star.
00:58:21
We have Carpenters too.
00:58:22
And it's like, we also have rock stars.
00:58:24
So check out the film and like, and celebrate with them.
00:58:27
That's right.
00:58:28
I like, I like that you leave on that note because like you said, there's some documentaries,
00:58:33
there's some stories where they, there's no solution.
00:58:36
There's no life afterwards.
00:58:38
And that's really what, what this podcast is also about.
00:58:40
Now what do you think is like one of the big hurdles for people who separate themselves,
00:58:48
they're physically out, they're mentally out, they're turning over that new leaf.
00:58:52
And then now it's like, I got to push in a whole new direction and be a part of or build
00:58:58
in this world that I was always taught was against me.
00:59:02
You know, what do you think is one of those, a big hurdle for people that are in that situation?
00:59:07
That's a great question.
00:59:08
And I think it's, it's not just this religion or this situation.
00:59:11
It's like a universal human thing.
00:59:12
It gets brought up a lot in different podcasts and shows and communities in this space about
00:59:17
like, what do you do with friendship?
00:59:18
Like how do you find a real friend after going through something like this?
00:59:22
And one thing I've been thinking about lately, like my solution that's, and it's not just
00:59:26
me, but like one thing that I've done and I've found very helpful is change your community,
00:59:31
change your location is the hack.
00:59:33
So if you can't go to another country or so your environment, change it or new city,
00:59:39
go to the next town over and rent an apartment there and get a similar job there.
00:59:42
If that's your only option because you have kids or something, there's a way to do it.
00:59:46
Or even just like stay in a different side of town and do stuff there.
00:59:50
Like that's purposefully change your environment in some way that you can because there's things
00:59:57
that will trigger you.
00:59:58
Or mind you of the situation, things that will like bring back bad memories or put you
01:00:02
in front of people that you don't, that are unhealthy for you to have in your life, perhaps
01:00:06
active members of a thing or a group that you were a part of.
01:00:10
But it's not easy.
01:00:12
And one perspective I've found is like, yeah, I've gone to live in other countries and the
01:00:16
term is thrown around expat.
01:00:18
But really I'm like an immigrant, right?
01:00:20
Like I'm trying to find a new life in a new place.
01:00:23
And I like to bounce around a little bit and everyone has that luxury or the freedom to
01:00:27
do that by obligations or family or something or even monetary reasons.
01:00:32
But the idea of like a similar situation as a refugee, someone who's thrust out of where
01:00:37
they were comfortable into a place where they're not comfortable anymore and they don't know
01:00:42
people, they don't have community.
01:00:43
But like it's one thing to be a refugee and just sort of feel stuck and traumatized.
01:00:48
And I'm not saying it's easy to undo that, but to like see it as an opportunity.
01:00:54
Now you're in a new place and you can build anything and start over.
01:00:57
And that's an amazing situation to be in.
01:00:59
Everything is possible.
01:01:01
And there's a lot of excitement and also unknowns that are difficult to handle because there's
01:01:06
still many new things all at once.
01:01:09
But if you can like change the mentality of it, like, okay, you don't have that thing
01:01:12
anymore that you were comfortable, where you were comfortable, like we were like addicted
01:01:15
to comfort as a human species.
01:01:18
But okay, you're in an uncomfortable situation.
01:01:20
Well, it's an opportunity to try and create a new situation, a better life.
01:01:25
Like there will always be changes.
01:01:26
That's like the one normal thing.
01:01:28
The constant is that there's always going to be change.
01:01:31
So like you can, it's a mental, it's a mental framework perspective thing.
01:01:34
Like you now have an opportunity to create a better life right now and you have to work
01:01:40
for it, but it's going to be good.
01:01:42
And I think that's something that even if you're in a normal situation, right?
01:01:46
Things pretty okay.
01:01:47
You can also do this.
01:01:48
And it's also healthy.
01:01:49
It just, it takes work and time, but it's a healthy perspective that this is a positive
01:01:54
benefit that's going to be interesting.
01:01:56
And you're going to get something out of it that's healthy for you.
01:01:58
Like go create the life you want.
01:02:00
Like I think it could happen every six months, reinvent your situation is probably a healthy
01:02:04
thing.
01:02:05
Yeah, why not?
01:02:06
That's right.
01:02:07
Reinventing yourself.
01:02:08
I mean, we're always evolving.
01:02:10
That's the way things are.
01:02:11
The seasons change, life changes with it.
01:02:13
And you can also take that and embrace it.
01:02:16
Life is evolving and you can evolve with it.
01:02:18
I love that.
01:02:19
That's something that is, I've heard plenty times and I believe that also.
01:02:24
I really think that's a sound way to put it is change your environment.
01:02:30
I've even heard stories of some people because of just the tie and the connection, especially
01:02:35
when you're living in close proximity to something like that, that they just would
01:02:40
get in the car and still drive over and pass by the church.
01:02:44
And there's all these, if you're not being reminded just on a whim, you're sometimes,
01:02:50
especially if you're still so close to it, you're willfully going out of your way to
01:02:55
just to go down memory lane or to have a, you still have a tie to it.
01:03:00
It's probably not healthy.
01:03:01
Exactly.
01:03:02
Like break the ties.
01:03:03
They're breaking them.
01:03:04
Might as well start fresh.
01:03:06
Like forget about the past and move on.
01:03:08
That's right.
01:03:09
Yeah.
01:03:10
Move forward.
01:03:11
And then tomorrow and embrace the change.
01:03:15
Do you see or do you know of, I know Scientology, they're kind of infamous with it.
01:03:20
Like say once you exclude yourself, but it seems like they ostracize you and they want
01:03:23
nothing to do with you, but they're not out there harassing you or-
01:03:28
The Jehovah's Witnesses.
01:03:29
Yeah.
01:03:30
There you go.
01:03:31
The Jehovah's Witnesses.
01:03:32
You're not getting anything like that.
01:03:33
Are you bullying?
01:03:34
Oh no, they do that.
01:03:35
No, they definitely do that in a big way, especially when you first get out.
01:03:39
Like the first months especially and then into like the first year or two if you stay
01:03:45
local, if you're in the area, those same people will keep on coming after you, showing up
01:03:50
at your house, at your work, checking in on you.
01:03:53
I mean, they have a book on every single address.
01:03:56
Anyone who's ever been nice to them, they have a book in their bags that they carry from
01:04:00
door to door and they write down notes about these people.
01:04:03
When do they work?
01:04:04
Where do they work?
01:04:05
What are their hours of, how many kids do they have?
01:04:06
How old are their kids?
01:04:07
What are their kids like?
01:04:08
Like, it's like privacy invasiveness next level.
01:04:12
And if someone that was a member, whether you left or kicked out or just stopped going,
01:04:17
they will keep on, especially the elders will keep on or like people that liked you but
01:04:21
like actually had a genuine relationship or affinity with you, they will use the weird
01:04:27
religious tactics to like keep you in the loop and try to guilt you into coming back
01:04:31
to God in their mind, coming back to their weird group, their dangerous controlling group.
01:04:37
Yeah, it's not healthy, especially that first year is like really hard in that way.
01:04:42
Lots of pressure, but they're not violent.
01:04:45
So that's like mostly, I mean, there's like a mass murder every six months.
01:04:50
There's one in Hamburg.
01:04:51
So if you're German listeners, this year in March, a guy got kicked out of the religion
01:04:57
and went back to church that week or two weeks later and murdered like eight people, including
01:05:01
a pregnant woman.
01:05:02
So like that and there was a bombing in Kerala, India a couple months, like two months ago.
01:05:07
A bunch of people were killed.
01:05:08
So like usually it's like someone who just got kicked out and they felt terrible about
01:05:13
the situation or felt wronged in a deep way for having to be treated this way and being
01:05:17
ostracized.
01:05:19
And so then they take it out on someone.
01:05:20
I mean, it's like 100 people a year, you get like one of those a year, one in 100
01:05:25
sick.
01:05:26
Yeah.
01:05:27
They kind of bring it on themselves, honestly.
01:05:28
I mean, I'm not advocating for violence, but they're doing terrible, terrible things to
01:05:33
these people, including me.
01:05:35
And there's obviously a reaction, my reaction was, Oh yeah, I'm not going to say anything
01:05:40
for years.
01:05:41
And then it was like, wait a minute, the power of filmmaking, I could say something that could
01:05:47
last decades.
01:05:49
I'm going to do that.
01:05:50
That's right.
01:05:51
I've lost my entire family of 17 members.
01:05:52
I'm going to let the world know how dangerous and dark this death cult is.
01:05:57
It's time they know.
01:05:58
This is your talent.
01:05:59
This is something that is inside of you and you're using this for a greater cause and
01:06:04
you've connected with it seems a lot of people who, like you said, they have their own experience
01:06:10
and not just people from the outside watching this documentary.
01:06:15
They don't have to be tied up with the religion or have a history with it, but that universal
01:06:19
basic human level that there's some kind of connection and there's something that's
01:06:23
resonating with everybody that came across it.
01:06:26
When do you have a plan date when it should be released for the public and everybody to
01:06:31
be able to check this out?
01:06:33
We will be putting it out to get quality control through a platform that allows us to distribute
01:06:39
it on probably two Bs the first target as a streaming platform with ads.
01:06:43
It's free to watch for the user.
01:06:45
That's the first place.
01:06:46
That'll probably end up being the first couple of months of next year.
01:06:49
We'll be the first availability in a general sense.
01:06:52
It is available if you go now to witnessunderground.com and you can pay to watch it.
01:06:57
It's not a good long-term goal.
01:06:59
If you want to watch right now, and I mentioned you offline, I'll give everyone who's watching
01:07:03
who listens to this a 50% off code so you can have a special link you can give to your
01:07:07
guests in the show notes.
01:07:09
So it's $10 right now, so it'll be $5 link.
01:07:12
It's not a long-term solution because a paywall alienates people from 99% of people aren't
01:07:17
going to do that and they have other options and the many other media to watch.
01:07:20
So we totally get them.
01:07:21
That's why we did the Kickstarter and we're trying to get it out in the world in a big
01:07:23
way as a standard piece of media.
01:07:26
It is a big thing.
01:07:27
I've learned how to do so.
01:07:29
Anybody has a film and they want to figure out how to do this from a fully indie way
01:07:33
or a more traditional way.
01:07:34
I've gone through the rope so the last few years, I can help give some advice.
01:07:38
I'm an open door when it comes to that kind of knowledge as a director.
01:07:42
I feel like I owe that to the world.
01:07:44
But yeah, it'll be available probably in a couple months in a general way with a free
01:07:49
option.
01:07:50
And you condensed, this is 27 years you said, like just a broad time for 27 years and you
01:07:57
condensed that into a couple of hours.
01:08:00
80 minutes.
01:08:01
Yeah.
01:08:02
So that was some doing.
01:08:03
Yeah.
01:08:04
And it flows really nice.
01:08:06
It has some nice moments and good revelations and emotional ups and downs and people are
01:08:12
pretty happy with it.
01:08:14
The most reviews I get on emotional level are like, oh my God, I cried.
01:08:18
I haven't done that.
01:08:19
I've never cried during a documentary before.
01:08:21
Didn't expect that one.
01:08:22
Yeah, I'm ready for it.
01:08:24
And you also have, because I came across a short, I guess it was a trailer because you
01:08:29
said you also had a series going on on YouTube.
01:08:32
That's right.
01:08:33
Yeah, we have a YouTube channel by the same name, Witness Underground.
01:08:35
It's youtube.com forward slash at symbol, witness underground.
01:08:38
So if you search there, you'll see the XJW coming out XJW is three letters.
01:08:43
XJW coming out series.
01:08:47
And that is, I have a lot more episodes to go with that.
01:08:50
So we have our second season is all on YouTube, first and second season.
01:08:53
Also what came out of making the movie was like, well, how do you market a movie?
01:08:57
I don't know.
01:08:58
I've always wanted to do a podcast.
01:08:59
How about we start a podcast?
01:09:00
And so Ryan, the main guy in the movie, it's like director and subject.
01:09:04
We became like super pals and sort of making content on the topic.
01:09:08
And the film really dives into his story deeply and another woman in the movie.
01:09:13
And the podcast has started out with Ryan and I co-hosting, interviewing other artists
01:09:18
who've also left this religion.
01:09:20
And so the Witness Underground podcast is the modern living, breathing vehicle of the
01:09:26
Witness Underground project, which is who else had a story like this?
01:09:29
I bet there's more than one.
01:09:31
The millions of people have left this religion.
01:09:33
Are there any artists?
01:09:34
And wow, there are so many artists and musicians and they're amazing.
01:09:38
I'm so impressed.
01:09:39
So like it's almost like a genre, even though like genre usually has like an emotional feeling
01:09:43
or like, oh, it's reggae.
01:09:45
So it has a very reggae vibe or something.
01:09:48
You know when it's reggae, cause it sounds like reggae.
01:09:50
Yeah.
01:09:51
But this is like post-post cult music.
01:09:53
So it crosses many genres.
01:09:54
So like in the film, we have psychedelic rock, indie rock, shoegaze, riot girl, like
01:09:59
some punk, some, um, electronica and all kinds of stuff with lyrics, some instrumental.
01:10:06
And in the post, you know, in the Witness Underground podcast, it's also all over the
01:10:10
place.
01:10:11
Also got some psychedelic rocks, like 90s style indie rock.
01:10:14
There's like some, I'm not a country fan, but there's a woman who's like some country
01:10:17
and then some like singer songwriter folk stuff out of Canada.
01:10:21
Some bluegrass, everything, huh?
01:10:23
Yeah, a little of everything.
01:10:25
It's fun.
01:10:26
And so, but the theme is the same, which is like, hey, I got out of this really difficult
01:10:29
situation and now I've, I'm writing about those relationships and, and forging a new
01:10:34
life and building something new with like my inspired new philosophy.
01:10:39
Like, oh wow.
01:10:40
Okay.
01:10:41
So lyrically, it's like a new genre.
01:10:43
Music eats all over the place.
01:10:44
I wonder if, if you guys ever plan on something maybe in the future to where you throw a concert,
01:10:51
how these, these bands get together and they just rock out.
01:10:54
I'm all about it actually.
01:10:55
And then in the film, we actually talked about a concert that the main characters were planning
01:11:00
before the end of the community.
01:11:04
And it was called My Adventure Flowerland.
01:11:06
And there's actually another, that was, they have a rock concert that was yearly annual
01:11:10
concert in Minneapolis called October Ridge based on where the place was where they did
01:11:15
it.
01:11:16
And then there's one in Chicago called Amazing Fruit that was in the religion.
01:11:19
And so this other one, My Adventure.
01:11:20
Amazing Fruit, huh?
01:11:21
Yeah.
01:11:22
Amazing Fruit in Chicago.
01:11:23
I like that.
01:11:24
And I went to some other concerts in Chicago too.
01:11:26
Like I was in Wisconsin.
01:11:27
So I was like between the two worlds.
01:11:28
I was like, and I was in my own band.
01:11:29
So I was like, oh, there's jobs when this stuff happening all over Wisconsin, but also
01:11:32
in a big way in these two cities.
01:11:33
But yeah, like this idea of doing a concert is really fun.
01:11:36
And after working with artists on such a grand level for so many years in my life, I'm probably
01:11:41
the most capable of organizing something, but it takes a lot of people to run a concert.
01:11:45
So especially the musicians need to be like taken care of and like there needs to be an
01:11:49
active and there needs to be an audience.
01:11:51
And that's the thing most musicians are always like, do you have an audience at your bar?
01:11:54
Am I going to be playing for three people or are you going to advertise?
01:11:58
And so like, how do you connect an audience to a cult post cult member?
01:12:03
So if you want to get involved, if anyone out there hears this, they want to get involved
01:12:07
and throwing together a concert.
01:12:08
I know all the artists would love to figure out how to like market a ex cult member ticket
01:12:15
sales.
01:12:16
That could be interesting.
01:12:17
Yeah.
01:12:18
But you know, like the world doesn't really have this yet.
01:12:21
So if you want to make something new, yeah, off the top of my head, I cannot think of
01:12:25
anything like that being done before.
01:12:28
That is something that's a fresh idea and pretty new.
01:12:30
But yeah, like you said, that's the tricky part is promoting it and marketing it to a
01:12:35
wider, wider audience.
01:12:37
And getting people to come out for it.
01:12:39
Because like you can get people to come out to what's the funny, the big one in Tomorrowland
01:12:44
in Netherlands.
01:12:45
Like, you know, 100 people come to that.
01:12:47
You'll sell it out for $500 a person.
01:12:50
It's crazy if you were to go to a CDJs, but like that music's like has a vibe.
01:12:55
It's known, modern, positive, fun house music that you can like drop acid to or MDMA.
01:13:02
People go crazy for that.
01:13:04
I'm not sure you'd have the same response to like, oh, people that were traumatized
01:13:08
are going to sing about it.
01:13:11
So it's a struggle.
01:13:12
I love the idea.
01:13:13
I want to throw a concert.
01:13:14
I think it's a great idea.
01:13:15
I want to think about it, but I'd love to hear from promoters out there who have gone,
01:13:19
who know how to promote a concert.
01:13:22
To flesh it out one day, maybe in the future.
01:13:25
Who knows?
01:13:26
Great idea, though.
01:13:27
Like I said, I'm fairly new to, I've known about Jehovah's Witness since I was a kid.
01:13:32
They do on Saturdays, they hit your door and also outside of the grocery stores, they're
01:13:37
passing out the Watchtower magazines.
01:13:39
But it seems like nowadays, I mean, is it safe to say, I don't know if you know this
01:13:45
personally, but are their numbers declining?
01:13:47
They've got to be.
01:13:48
Oh, it's a great question.
01:13:49
Yeah, they report, they used to do an annual report for like 70 years, 50 years, something.
01:13:55
So every year would be like this whole thing in the summer at their yearly convention you
01:13:59
have to go to where they would say like, hey, we announced the report and here's some positive
01:14:04
news, some of the peak numbers we've got in certain countries around the world and they're
01:14:09
in every country in the world.
01:14:10
I don't see them here.
01:14:11
But Europe over the last five years has been really stagnant and they actually just did
01:14:18
something two months ago where they no longer require you to go preaching by hours.
01:14:24
They used to force you to report your hours of how many hours you preach per month.
01:14:28
If you drop by a certain level, they take you off, they drop you down the hierarchy
01:14:32
because you haven't been keeping up your regularity.
01:14:36
And you can rise in regularity by like putting a huge amount of hours in like 50, 70 hours
01:14:40
a month, they have a whole category for that and you get special access and privileges
01:14:44
for that.
01:14:45
Special respect gets given to you.
01:14:48
Anyway, so they basically stopped their global preaching work.
01:14:51
They still make you give a piece of report that has a checkbox like, I did it at least
01:14:56
once this month.
01:14:57
So it's like, they still kind of want you to do it, but now they don't even want you
01:15:00
to go door to door.
01:15:01
They don't seem to care about that.
01:15:02
They care more about it.
01:15:03
But it's like an integrity system.
01:15:06
You can say you did it, but you didn't, did you really do it?
01:15:09
I think the reason why that is, is because they don't actually get many people from that.
01:15:13
They get people from manipulating people when they're traumatized from like, oh, someone
01:15:17
you love just died.
01:15:18
Perfect.
01:15:19
We've been waiting for this moment to happen.
01:15:21
Let's talk about hooking you right now.
01:15:24
You know that you can see the person who just died again, or the only people who can get
01:15:28
you there.
01:15:30
You can see them in a paradise.
01:15:31
What's paradise?
01:15:32
Well, we have this, our religion preaches immortality.
01:15:36
You can get to see and we'll bring back people with a resurrection to life on earth forever.
01:15:41
Getting people that way is what's really effective and how they hook people in.
01:15:44
Getting people knocking on doors and pissing them off on a Saturday morning hasn't been
01:15:47
that effective.
01:15:48
The only thing that that works well for is what we talked about earlier, which is the
01:15:52
persecution complex.
01:15:53
So like you put yourself in a situation where people are mistreating you or not being nice
01:15:57
to you.
01:15:58
And then you go back to your group and everyone's like patting you on the back for going through
01:16:01
it with them.
01:16:02
You went through the trenches and war with them.
01:16:06
Someone slammed the door on you and said something mean to you or pointed a gun at you or made
01:16:10
fun of you in public.
01:16:12
Come back and talk to your people.
01:16:13
Yeah, we all have a story like that.
01:16:15
It's okay.
01:16:16
Yeah, I know what you're going through.
01:16:18
So that's what it's really for and how it's used.
01:16:20
It's not really to get new converts.
01:16:22
It's really, really random.
01:16:24
Once in every few years, you might meet someone who actually just had someone die and you
01:16:27
really hooked them with the emotional trauma of promising them, promising to see their dead
01:16:32
loved one again.
01:16:33
That's great that you said that because that was something also I was going to ask you
01:16:36
was what do you think is enticing or alluring to somebody that their first time encountering
01:16:45
this adoption and this belief system because it seems like either that, like what you said,
01:16:51
that's a real good point that you made or you have people that were just, they were
01:16:56
born into it and that's something that's all they knew.
01:17:00
So they became accustomed to it only because this is something that was normalized and
01:17:04
conditioned into their way of life.
01:17:07
But somebody who's an adult already and coming across it for the first time, I guess, like
01:17:12
you said, that could be something that is worth chewing on a little bit and entertaining
01:17:17
more is the fact that, oh, they're vulnerable.
01:17:20
And I'd love to think that I can see my wife or my husband dearly departed after I leave
01:17:28
this place.
01:17:29
Yeah, that's the big hook.
01:17:30
They talk about that mostly just that.
01:17:33
That's like their daily thing.
01:17:34
It's like the end of the world is coming is one thing with abstract.
01:17:37
They talk about bad news all the time.
01:17:39
They repeat bad news, negative news, war.
01:17:42
They try to attach that to prophecy in the Bible and so that makes them seem intellectual
01:17:45
and relevant.
01:17:47
And then the end of the world's coming.
01:17:48
So like what, how are you going to survive that is a topic.
01:17:52
But basically it's like, you're just going to think about the future and that you're
01:17:55
going to be able to live forever.
01:17:57
And if you do die, it's okay because like God will bring you back.
01:18:00
He'll remember you and you'll be living on earth forever.
01:18:03
So like those are their, their main topic, talking points and their main hooks and their
01:18:07
main selling is immortality on earth.
01:18:11
And if you die, it's you'll, you'll also get to have that and pain is just a temporary
01:18:15
experience.
01:18:16
They don't do any charity work.
01:18:18
They don't help you out if you're struggling.
01:18:20
They've never given any money from the headquarters to any individuals as members like no one's
01:18:25
ever gotten medical care.
01:18:26
No financial support, anything.
01:18:28
Zero.
01:18:29
They've never helped the greater community outside of their own community.
01:18:32
If they do like go to a disaster area like a flood in Louisiana during Katrina, they
01:18:37
went there and made a big deal in the news about how Joseph's businesses are coming down
01:18:40
and spending so much money to help out.
01:18:42
But really they only built new churches and they might have helped some individual members
01:18:47
like repair their houses.
01:18:48
And that was it.
01:18:49
No one, no one from the greater community, just their own members, active members.
01:18:52
No, definitely not someone who hasn't been going to church recently.
01:18:56
Not someone who left their religion, only the people who are actively going.
01:18:59
So yeah, they're, and then they, they spin that into like a news article and the news
01:19:02
picks up and they show like good positive.
01:19:04
Oh yeah.
01:19:05
Spotlight Rangers.
01:19:06
They do a ton of that.
01:19:09
Now that you, you have some time away from it.
01:19:11
You said 15 years or so that you've been, you've been outside of that, that way of life and
01:19:15
just that umbrella.
01:19:16
But have you since then hooked up with people that you personally, personally knew that were
01:19:23
Jehovah's Witness and they've also separated themselves.
01:19:27
Yeah, actually.
01:19:28
Reunions and reuniting after, you know, years of silence or being ostracized or being an
01:19:34
apostate.
01:19:35
Isn't that what they call people?
01:19:37
Yeah.
01:19:38
I'm, according to them, I'm an apostate.
01:19:40
I'm according to the dictionary.
01:19:42
I'm also an apostate, which just means you no longer believe what you were taught as
01:19:46
a child, like the faith of your parents or your community.
01:19:50
I definitely don't believe it.
01:19:52
The spell has been broken.
01:19:54
And it feels great.
01:19:55
Like, I mean, yeah, it's weird to be, have been a cult member.
01:19:59
It's also weird to be an ex-cult member, but like also I successfully navigated cult mind
01:20:05
control.
01:20:06
What have you done?
01:20:07
I like to frame it that way.
01:20:09
Yes.
01:20:10
Well, you might get sucked into a cult and not know it.
01:20:13
And are you going to get out of it?
01:20:14
Are you going to be one of the few that gets out?
01:20:16
Like I got out.
01:20:17
I can see through the bullshit of the government and other nefarious religious groups.
01:20:23
I can see through the nonsense of their religious spiritual guru and doing the yoga instruction
01:20:30
down the street from you.
01:20:32
I can see what they're doing.
01:20:33
I've seen the patterns.
01:20:34
I can see the in-group language and the in-group grooming, clothing requirements and norms
01:20:41
and the narcissistic abuse tactics to get you to conform to something.
01:20:48
I see it all over the place and it's not just java's businesses.
01:20:51
It's all through society.
01:20:52
It's humans.
01:20:54
It's humans and people in a power struggle wanting to maintain control, dominate control,
01:20:58
get access to more sex, get access to more money, more power, control over other human
01:21:03
beings, get them to do what you want as like mental slaves.
01:21:07
It's happening all over the place.
01:21:08
It happens in work.
01:21:09
It's a pattern and part of me is like, yeah, this is hard to go through, but also I have
01:21:15
a huge leg up on society because these nefarious control tactics are all over the place.
01:21:22
You might not see them, but they're happening.
01:21:25
Most people that I've pointed things out to people, I'm like, hey, as a friend, I want
01:21:29
you to see what this thing is that you're doing.
01:21:32
Not you're doing, but like that you're a part of this thing where other people are doing
01:21:34
this thing and I can see what they are doing and you're a part of that thing.
01:21:38
They're like, no, no, no, he's a good person.
01:21:41
If they were a good person, they wouldn't be doing that.
01:21:44
They're not good at dissonance.
01:21:46
For them, it's simple and clean and they're just obedient because they choose to be.
01:21:52
No, you were coerced into that.
01:21:55
That was an unhealthy situation and you brought it up and so I'm pointing it out.
01:22:00
Why?
01:22:01
You're like, no, no, no, I think I'm in control.
01:22:02
They want you to think you're in control.
01:22:03
God damn it.
01:22:04
No one will ever get this unless they live through it.
01:22:06
I'm a bit struggling because I do meet people and they don't see it and I can see it as
01:22:12
clear as day a mile away.
01:22:16
I feel great though that I have this skill set and I can see danger from far away.
01:22:21
I am a little bit skeptical and a little bit untrusting, but I also have a really, really
01:22:26
good reason and my spider senses are very active.
01:22:31
That's right.
01:22:32
Use the force.
01:22:33
Yeah, I have the force.
01:22:34
I have access.
01:22:35
I have access.
01:22:37
So it's safe to say you've been enjoying your life and living your life, embracing life
01:22:44
since you've been away and you've involved yourself in a whole lot of things, a lot of
01:22:52
creative avenues you've been exploring and entertaining.
01:22:55
Man, that's a beautiful thing to hear.
01:22:59
I love the fact that you are especially connecting with so many people, bringing everybody together
01:23:04
and giving them a voice and just spreading the message because the only way that awareness
01:23:11
can come is if people bring awareness.
01:23:14
Some people, they can keep it to themselves and just carry on with their life, say once
01:23:18
they separate from anything that was traumatic or something that was toxic, but to also speak
01:23:25
about it, I think, is very encouraging to people that have came from a place like that.
01:23:31
They find themselves stuck in a place like that.
01:23:34
It's good that there are people that choose to, after time, like you said, there was a
01:23:38
time, of course, I don't want to speak about it.
01:23:42
Don't want to talk about it.
01:23:43
Let me just be, let's live and let live, but then there comes a time and a place where
01:23:47
you're like, you know what, I'm a bit upset or I'm a bit angry.
01:23:51
I lost a lot of things on account of this, so it's only right that I've voiced my concerns.
01:23:57
Yeah.
01:23:58
No, I think that's all accurate.
01:24:00
Summarization, also, one of my things is like, well, they have a TV show and they're forcing
01:24:06
my own family members to go talk about their way of seeing the world.
01:24:12
I'm going to do that.
01:24:13
I'm going to keep, actually, I'm going to do it in a way that's really honest, intellectually
01:24:17
honest and from a place of love, but I'm going to do it as well because I have to to fight
01:24:24
what they're doing as like they can put their ideas in the world.
01:24:27
Why can't I?
01:24:28
Their ideas all conform to the religion because they're coerced and they can't have their
01:24:31
own voice.
01:24:33
I almost even more for that reason need to speak up because I have people that I love
01:24:37
who are trapped in this thing that are coerced and blinded and have to go announce bad ideas
01:24:45
to the world and affect people for the worse and they can't see it.
01:24:50
Like I feel like I'm obligated.
01:24:51
And also, I had a pretty light experience with the religion.
01:24:54
The Shunning's real and I think that's pretty universal.
01:24:56
I also have an experience where I wasn't a born in full on believer my whole life and
01:25:02
totally the trauma is like too much to handle of like losing not only everyone, but also
01:25:06
your entire worldview.
01:25:07
I was pretty skeptical child and I was like having formed my own beliefs and had a lot
01:25:11
of like great diversity influences throughout my life.
01:25:14
So I'm probably well positioned to be a person to have the emotional strength, but maybe
01:25:19
not the strength, but like I'm not as deeply hurt by the tragedy of having your worldview.
01:25:26
You swept away as someone who was like a full believer fully indoctrinated member.
01:25:32
And so like I'm almost more equipped.
01:25:33
The more the things pulled from under them.
01:25:35
Yeah, exactly.
01:25:36
There's a lot of people out there that are just like, this is too huge.
01:25:39
Like I'm not talking about it.
01:25:40
I can't.
01:25:41
I've been in therapy for 40 years and I still can't talk about it.
01:25:43
And I'm like, oh, this is fun for me.
01:25:46
What other cult members are out there?
01:25:48
I'm having a great time.
01:25:51
Yeah, you had a wild ride, especially living overseas.
01:25:56
Okay.
01:25:57
You were in Vietnam for how long?
01:25:59
Five years?
01:26:00
Five years.
01:26:01
I loved it.
01:26:02
I highly recommend it.
01:26:03
I highly recommend like taking, going to the farthest place on the world you can think
01:26:06
of that you won't be comfortable in like going and getting an apartment.
01:26:10
It sounds.
01:26:11
It teaches yourself.
01:26:12
Yeah.
01:26:13
A lot of things.
01:26:14
It sounds crazy, but like it's actually people are the same everywhere in a lot of ways as
01:26:18
well.
01:26:19
There's restaurants and bathrooms and public transport and like streets, like in apartments
01:26:25
and like all the things you need an apartment.
01:26:26
You can also, there also, it's like a lot of, all the normal stuff is there.
01:26:29
It's just like you don't know anyone.
01:26:30
The language is difficult and there's an immense amount of challenges and cultural differences
01:26:33
that you'll, you'll never know until you're in it and it'll, it won't be comfortable, but
01:26:37
like you grow in such a huge way that it's like, you can, I don't know, I never want
01:26:42
to go back.
01:26:43
Like going back to the States for me, it'll probably happen at some point, but I'm just
01:26:47
sort of like, there's just, I know the world.
01:26:49
How long has it been?
01:26:50
How long has it been since you've, you've went back to the States?
01:26:53
This is my eighth year abroad, but it's over.
01:26:56
Eighth year straight.
01:26:57
No, no break.
01:26:58
You haven't, no visiting.
01:26:59
No, no, no.
01:27:00
It's eight total years in my life.
01:27:02
So I started when I was 25 and I had like a six months here and then like a couple of
01:27:08
years in the States and like a year here and then Vietnam was the longest one.
01:27:11
But even during that time I was taking a couple, I had some work opportunities come up.
01:27:14
It's like every year, except for one year, I was back in the States for a couple of months.
01:27:18
So you were doing everything digital, right?
01:27:20
Kind of like a digital nomad.
01:27:21
Yeah.
01:27:22
Yeah.
01:27:23
Before that term was common.
01:27:24
Yeah.
01:27:25
I was doing digital nomad work and then I had some in-person jobs that came that brought
01:27:30
me back to the States for engineering.
01:27:31
So I ended up picking up engineering during the last recession.
01:27:33
I went back to school.
01:27:35
And so I got some like serious tech, STEM education.
01:27:39
And so I do electronics design as a thing that pays my life.
01:27:43
All right.
01:27:44
All right.
01:27:45
So I started to take a movie and like stabilize myself for the podcast, which is not easy
01:27:49
because there's a lot of competition.
01:27:51
Engineering is like, I highly recommend everyone going into STEM because there's no competition.
01:27:55
People are calling me asking me if I want a job and I'm like, nah, I'm all right.
01:28:00
I don't want a job right now.
01:28:01
But like that's a crazy different perspective than like, I'm trying to like, I'm trying
01:28:04
to apply it to be a barista.
01:28:05
That's right.
01:28:06
And there's 300 applicants with a PhD and it's like, fuck, how do you live life like
01:28:11
with everyone is more qualified than you and every single option that you have.
01:28:14
I did that for a long time.
01:28:15
And so I went back to school.
01:28:16
But yeah, so I had some jobs coming, bringing me back to the States to do some like engineering
01:28:21
work with aerospace.
01:28:22
And it was cool.
01:28:23
I learned a lot and I loved it.
01:28:25
But also I have these other passions like the filmmaking and the podcast is like my
01:28:30
deep passion.
01:28:31
That's your heart right there.
01:28:32
Yeah.
01:28:33
If it comes to engineering, like I'm working on a sustainable toy right now.
01:28:36
It doesn't sound that inspiring.
01:28:37
I worked on stuff for NASA and I put stuff in a space on the space station and I have
01:28:41
some like spacecraft flying around somewhere by some company.
01:28:46
So like that's exciting and cool.
01:28:49
But like the fun for me and the inspiration for me is way more in the, how do we solve
01:28:54
the planet's problems?
01:28:56
Because it's just us and like we have to make the world better and we're not doing that
01:29:00
very fast and we're doing worse things faster.
01:29:04
We're breaking things faster than we're fixing them.
01:29:05
So like I want to build in sustainable sustainability.
01:29:08
Like moving away from plastics, creating electronics that are, you can dissolve them in water and
01:29:15
they're not poisonous to the water supply for like the end of life for a system.
01:29:19
When the toy finally breaks 10 years from now, what's going to happen?
01:29:22
It's going to go into a landfill, but what will happen to it then?
01:29:25
Will it dissolve?
01:29:26
Cool.
01:29:27
That sounds great.
01:29:28
It'll dissolve in a way that's like healthy for the environment.
01:29:31
Like that.
01:29:32
So like for me, I'm like, ooh, it's just a toy.
01:29:33
It's not that important for the planet, but people are going to keep on buying toys and
01:29:37
it's better to have something that like turns into water.
01:29:39
Okay, right.
01:29:40
Don't.
01:29:41
Yeah.
01:29:42
That's healthy then.
01:29:43
So I'm going to inspire, inspire more on that.
01:29:45
That's more interesting to me than spacecraft.
01:29:47
But there may be a shock to someone or like solving an environmental problem that has to
01:29:52
with clean energy, for example.
01:29:54
That's way more interesting to me than like working on a missile or a torpedo or something.
01:29:59
Yeah, that's all.
01:30:00
Ultimately, what does that lead to destruction?
01:30:03
Like you said, we're about doing things that are more sustainable to the environment and
01:30:07
also to humanity in whole.
01:30:10
Yeah.
01:30:11
I love that kind of thing.
01:30:12
That's where I want to spend my future.
01:30:13
So I actually, I was, I'm going through like the kicker shooter backer incentives and like
01:30:18
giving out gifts and stuff for everyone that supported our project.
01:30:21
And I was like, well, what else could I be doing next year?
01:30:23
What about, oh, I'm going to write a book.
01:30:25
I have like all my journals from my teenage years.
01:30:26
I'm going to write a little memoir, but also like, I'm going to make a course on how to
01:30:30
write a book.
01:30:31
And for other people that want to write a book that want to be empowered on how to do
01:30:33
it and DIY production, do it yourself.
01:30:37
And then like, I want to do a, how did I make this documentary the course for people that
01:30:41
want to make a documentary and like also have their voice?
01:30:43
Cause like this process took me years to figure out and it was a lot of challenges.
01:30:49
Like I would like to give that knowledge back.
01:30:51
Are you self taught with the documentary?
01:30:53
For the most part.
01:30:54
I mean, I learned from, or were you taking some classes?
01:30:56
My education, it's, it's one thing to say self taught.
01:30:58
It sounds like, you know, it's a bit of an ego thing or like a challenge or like an impressive
01:31:02
thing to say, but really what I've found is that I found a number of mentors throughout
01:31:07
my life.
01:31:08
Like I found people that were doing it that were already making money at it and like at
01:31:12
a high level.
01:31:13
And I asked them to work for them to learn from them.
01:31:17
And I would work for free or low cost to do that on different projects and they would
01:31:21
hire me and we made deals.
01:31:23
Pick their brain a bit.
01:31:24
It's huge.
01:31:25
And like acceleration, like comparing that to like going to film school, maybe four or
01:31:28
five years, like I'm sure it's, you get a great education, but even these people that
01:31:32
like, I went to film school and you can learn it all from nofilmschool.com.
01:31:36
And or you can learn it all from like taking some small courses and like picking people's
01:31:39
brains and like getting mentors of your own.
01:31:41
Just hang out with me and work for me and I will, I will teach you in like that going
01:31:46
that path.
01:31:48
That's something I want to write in my book.
01:31:49
It's like the, I'm going off on a tangent here, but this is my, this is my future in
01:31:52
my life, right?
01:31:53
I've learned three mentors and a thing that you're passionate about and work with for
01:31:56
each of them for six months or a year.
01:31:59
Then you have a year and a half of like how to do it in a way that works right now and
01:32:04
you can replicate it and make money today in a way and like doing the essential stuff
01:32:08
that also and show, present as a professional from day one.
01:32:12
Like you're learning from someone who's doing it, just copy what they're doing and they're
01:32:15
teaching you because they like value that you want.
01:32:17
You value them and see them as someone important.
01:32:20
Like the mentor apprentice style for me is huge and I've always loved it.
01:32:24
And for me, that's like, that's the way to navigate the world, especially today where
01:32:28
like university education, it's a racket.
01:32:31
Like the boomer generation has turned into a for-profit business and they don't really
01:32:35
actually care if you have a valuable knowledge or understanding when you leave.
01:32:40
Maybe some universities are different.
01:32:41
Or a degree you come out and it's useless.
01:32:43
You can't even use it and you're in debt, $200.
01:32:46
That's the norm for my generation.
01:32:48
Students in debt and they're in their 40s and they can't afford their first starter
01:32:51
house because they're still paying their student loans off every month and they're buried.
01:32:56
Like that's not a sustainable system.
01:32:58
That's half life.
01:32:59
You're midlife crisis and you still can't afford a place to live.
01:33:03
You know, like that's the system.
01:33:04
So we're in a situation now where all the internet, all the information in the planet
01:33:09
is available for free or in low cost.
01:33:13
Like a lot of major universities, MIT has free courses.
01:33:15
Harvard has free courses.
01:33:16
Like you can learn so much and even people that are experts like doing it right now have
01:33:21
made a course for $20 on Udemy or Coursera or whatever.
01:33:26
You can go get the education and fill in the gaps and you can work and be mentored and
01:33:30
get it all in a shorter period of time for cheaper.
01:33:34
Actually you can get paid to learn.
01:33:36
That's the title of the chapter.
01:33:38
Get paid to learn.
01:33:39
Find a mentor.
01:33:40
Yeah, I love that.
01:33:42
That's what I'm talking about.
01:33:44
We went on a good ride with this.
01:33:47
You shared a lot of good nuggets about everything and also the things that you're involved with
01:33:52
right now.
01:33:53
And man, I know you're a busy man and I appreciate you taking time out of your day.
01:34:00
It was a pretty quick hit.
01:34:01
You know, we chatted for a bit and then we set something up and here we are.
01:34:05
And I was happy to be able to hear your story and to have you share some of your experience
01:34:11
and the projects that you're dealing with now.
01:34:13
Do you have any final thoughts or anything you'd like to share with the rest of the listeners
01:34:18
with?
01:34:19
I think witnessunderground.com would be a great finish.
01:34:22
Everything for the film and the podcast, you can find there, the places to watch, the podcast
01:34:28
episodes that come out.
01:34:29
It's a little bit wonky on the podcast side, but our podcast is especially on the website
01:34:34
right now, but we have the witness underground.
01:34:37
The channel on YouTube has all the video podcasts and you can also find everywhere podcasts
01:34:41
are the witness underground podcast as audio only.
01:34:45
So if you're into podcasts, that's where that's at.
01:34:46
The series is on the YouTube channel, the XJW coming out series, the film and then anything
01:34:51
and then we have a Patreon.
01:34:52
So if you want to support the project, there is that option and that's where you get a
01:34:56
lot of extras.
01:34:57
You'll learn about a lot of other former cult member music there that we don't put in the
01:35:00
podcast or will be far future guests hopefully someday.
01:35:04
So the Patreon's a fun spot and we have a discord.
01:35:07
So like there's a whole world here.
01:35:08
It's not just that we made a movie.
01:35:09
It's like a whole community of people that spans many, many countries and lots of different
01:35:14
kinds of music and musicians and artists and graphic artists and authors are involved.
01:35:17
It's like becoming quite a machine.
01:35:19
It's pretty fun.
01:35:20
That's right.
01:35:21
A machine against the machine.
01:35:22
Yeah.
01:35:23
Exactly.
01:35:24
Rage against the machine through art.
01:35:28
There was a lot that you mentioned right now.
01:35:31
So you can share the links with me and I'll be sure to include all of that in the show
01:35:36
notes so people can pick and choose what they'd like to set before their eyes and I'm sure
01:35:41
you have something for everyone.
01:35:43
You have the music, you have the visuals.
01:35:45
For sure I'm definitely looking forward to checking out the documentary and the music.
01:35:49
It's been a pleasure Rich.
01:35:50
I really appreciate the conversation.
01:35:52
I think you took it on a really fun journey and it brought out some interesting topics
01:35:57
including my future present world.
01:35:59
But yeah, I'm glad we met too.
01:36:01
We met on a Reddit channel for podcasting guests and hosts and that was so unique.
01:36:06
I'm trying out some different ways of finding different shows to get on and I really appreciate
01:36:10
you reaching out and this is the second interview I've done through that group and it's been
01:36:15
great.
01:36:16
Oh, perfect.
01:36:17
People from all over the world, people that are ready to go, people that are professional,
01:36:20
like you've done a great job.
01:36:22
So thank you.
01:36:23
I like your channel.
01:36:24
I'm going to be following and I'll share it.
01:36:25
Thank you.
01:36:26
Likewise.
01:36:27
And I'm all the best to you, appreciate it and yes, Scott man, thanks a lot for your
01:36:33
time.
01:36:34
Thanks a lot for your words, your spirit and keep going after it my friend.
01:36:37
Keep going after it.
01:36:38
Thanks buddy, you too.
01:36:39
Enjoy hassan.
01:36:40
It's been great chatting with you and everyone is listening.
01:36:44
I look forward to hearing from you.
01:36:45
Reach out.
01:36:47
Witness Underground.
01:36:49
It's available right now and like Scott said, he was cool enough to leave a link with us
01:36:55
so I'll be providing that link.
01:36:57
You'll find it in the show notes and by clicking on the link, it'll give you half off when
01:37:02
streaming that film is bringing awareness about the dangers involved with this cult,
01:37:09
the shunning that goes on, the abuse that goes on.
01:37:13
This is shedding a light and all the support is going to the musicians and the creators
01:37:18
to help get the word out there.
01:37:21
Again, it's Witness Underground.
01:37:23
He also has the Witness Underground podcast and the documentary series.
01:37:27
All of that information you'll find in the show notes.
01:37:31
Isn't it a trip as much as Scott had his mind made up that when he left the church,
01:37:37
when he separated himself from everything to do with Jehovah's Witness, what he wanted
01:37:42
to do was just live his life.
01:37:44
I don't want to talk about it.
01:37:46
I don't want to think about it.
01:37:47
Let me just move on.
01:37:48
But there were people put into his life and there was a commonality between him and them.
01:37:55
And that was being Jehovah's Witness.
01:37:58
What are the chances of that?
01:37:59
Was it a coincidence?
01:38:00
I'll let you be the judge.
01:38:02
But for Scott, it meant something and he heeded the call.
01:38:06
He came out of the swamp like Luke Skywalker.
01:38:09
He was trained to be an activist.
01:38:12
And so he took that, leaned into it and began to use his creativity and the connections
01:38:18
that he had with all these people who had something in common, escaping a cult.
01:38:25
He involved himself in what makes him happy, something he enjoys doing music, documenting,
01:38:32
filmmaking and also the bigger cause, which is bringing awareness and talking about the
01:38:38
dangers of this cult, but also highlighting artists and musicians that have left the church,
01:38:44
giving hope to people who may have just left.
01:38:47
They're still on the fence or they may even be afraid of leaving and pushing out into
01:38:53
the unknown.
01:38:54
You're not alone.
01:38:55
So I think it's a beautiful thing that he has going on over there, highlighting the
01:38:59
musicians and bringing awareness to the dangers of his cult.
01:39:05
He came out of the swamps with something to share.
01:39:08
So anybody else who may be alone right now or feeling like they have no one because maybe
01:39:13
they left the church or they left the situation.
01:39:16
Scott, you're doing a good deed.
01:39:19
Keep on rocking.
01:39:20
You are a giant amongst us.
01:39:23
I'd like to thank you all for tuning in.
01:39:26
We're all sharing in this experience together.
01:39:29
When it's up, we're riding high and we think nothing can go wrong.
01:39:34
And when we're down, it feels like it's never going to get any better.
01:39:39
Remember, you're worth it and you can better your situation.
01:39:43
You guys, it's been great.
01:39:45
I'm going to check back with you all before the end of the year.
01:39:49
By the time you guys hear this, it'll be Christmas or the day before.
01:39:53
So I want to wish everybody a Merry Christmas.
01:39:56
Happy holidays.
01:39:58
Be safe out there.
01:40:00
Spend some time with your loved ones.
01:40:02
Enjoy that time more than anything more than getting a big screen TV or a brand new car
01:40:07
or share a laptop, whatever it is, more than that.
01:40:12
Enjoy the presence.
01:40:15
Not present as in gifts, but the presence of those you love.
01:40:22
Whoever it is, wherever they are, just be thankful for having them in your life.
01:40:27
We never know when we'll lose it.
01:40:29
I'll be sure to check back before we top off the new year.
01:40:33
If you guys enjoyed the show, you can visit giantsamongstus.com.
01:40:37
There's a lot of different stories.
01:40:39
There's a lot of different experiences.
01:40:41
This isn't a one size fits all, but maybe something in what someone else has been through
01:40:47
and what someone else is saying can help you on your path.
01:40:51
That's all.
01:40:52
We're not saying we have the answers and nobody here is perfect.
01:40:55
Still a work in progress.
01:40:57
If you find value in it, or if you think somebody you know might find value or appreciate the
01:41:03
show, share it with them.
01:41:05
You guys be safe, be well, and be cool.
01:41:09
And if you would like to be a part of the show and share your story, or even the story
01:41:15
of someone in your life that has impacted you in a positive way, you can always reach
01:41:20
out to me via email.
01:41:23
I'd be happy to connect until next time and very soon.
01:41:28
Peace.
01:41:29
My turn.